ICEBOX SESSIONS

_______________________________________________________________________ Ep5_Dave Quinn Transcript [00:00:00] Dave: You can never get too much grip in rock climbing. that's not a problem that you can have. Dammit. I've got too much grip. Yeah. If only my fingers weren't so strong. I've, I've like evolved into a, a new species. I can't stop, I can never stop, but, uh, at least I don't, uh, wear pajamas in public anymore. [00:00:19] Sean: Hey folks, welcome to another icebox session. My name is Sean Cassidy and we are in conversation with Nova Scotia Rock Climbers. Today's guest to kick off the 2026 season is the one and only Dave Quinn. Dave is probably Nova Scotia's most dedicated and accomplished Boulders currently projecting in the V 13 range. He's kind of a mystery. You'll never see him in a gym. He climbs exclusively outside all year round and often at night. If you don't recognize his name, you will probably know him as the mastermind behind Mo Beta, a free online bouldering guide that he started developing in 2011. In this conversation, we get into some deep discussions about braiding style. And his YouTube channel that has over 25,000 followers. We also talk about his revolutionary new torture, I mean, finger training device that he designed and is selling internationally. I hope you enjoy this fascinating conversation. I'm really excited to talk to you. We don't really know each other. I think we maybe had a brief conversation once, [00:01:20] Dave: do you think? I feel like in the very early days, perhaps, but I would've been, that would've been 20 years ago. Okay. And I would've, I would've been a very beginner. [00:01:28] Sean: So you've been climbing 20 years and you started at ground zero. Is that the, is that the deal [00:01:32] Dave: basically? Yeah. Yeah, There was a gap in there. And I've been seriously climbing for 15, so that was like a five year intro period. and it would've been during that. [00:01:42] Sean: I remember seeing you and you'd be off on your own doing stuff. You seemed kind of like a lone wolf. Yeah. climbing in your, uh, scrubs or, or pajamas, pajama, yeah. I used, [00:01:51] Dave: yeah. Yeah. Ben, uh, Ben called me Pajama pants. Quinn. Yeah. Okay. Well, in the ear, in the earliest phase. Yeah. [00:01:57] Sean: Yeah. Therien and I were chatting, recently and was like, we, we would refer to you as pajama Dave. [00:02:03] Dave: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was, uh, still living at home and was a, just, um, wearing pajamas out in public is, you know, a fa a phase, let's put it that way. Yeah. [00:02:14] Sean: But also, uh, Sean also said that, you know, he has a lot of respect for you, and always did, because you were doing your own thing. You don't, you didn't give a about Prana or Gucci or whatever. Yeah. Hip, hip climbers were wearing, you were wearing your pajamas, and that's just how it was. [00:02:34] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. There was some definitely an element of, of that, wasn't conforming to, uh, [00:02:40] Sean: I don't think you do now either. No, of course not. Like you do, you [00:02:42] Dave: do your [00:02:42] Sean: own thing, right? Yeah. [00:02:43] Dave: Yeah. But, uh, at least I don't, uh, wear pajamas in public anymore. [00:02:46] Sean: So you, your wife probably likes that. [00:02:48] Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:02:49] Sean: So how did you get pulled in? What drew you to climbing in the first place? Like 20 years ago? So, 2005 ish? [00:02:56] Dave: Yeah, so it would've been in undergrad, second or third year of university. And I started, I, think the very first time I went would've been, university intermurals. I wasn't really interested all that much at that phase, you know, it was, it took me a [00:03:12] Sean: diversion. [00:03:12] Dave: It was a diversion, yeah, exactly. A way to get some fitness in. And I was only dabbling in climbing. And that it's, it remained that way for those. Those first, um, several years. Okay. And that's when I would've first been at the Rock Court, or sorry, not the Rock court, at ground zero. Ground zero, [00:03:28] Sean: yeah. But it seemed like, 'cause I [00:03:28] Dave: lived in Dartmouth at the time, I was living at home. [00:03:31] Sean: Super [00:03:31] Dave: convenient. it was more, it was closer to home. [00:03:33] Sean: Yeah. So you say you're just sort of dabbling in those first five years. When did you start getting serious about it and how did you kind of level up your game? [00:03:41] Dave: That's right. Yeah. So I went away to, uh, medical school and basically through a series of, uh, injuries, and just other obligations drifted away and stopped climbing completely during that time. It w it was when I returned back to the Maritimes. So I went to medical school in Calgary. I got a series of injuries that, um, are common in, um, ear, earlier stage climbers, and the, the kind of usual injuries that, uh, actually a lot of the people who are buying grippers now are, uh, are, having I, well, [00:04:10] Sean: I've had 'em all. I think yeah, we've all had 'em all. Yeah, you got, [00:04:13] Dave: you gotta go through that phase, right? You gotta have all your injuries and then you'll learn how to, manage them and, and climb through them and uh, and rehab them. But anyway, um, I had other things going on and so I drifted away, completely moved home to begin medical residency and I thought, you know, maybe I should, uh, maybe I should pick up climbing again. 'cause I still had a crash pad in my apartment from the before times. And [00:04:36] Sean: you weren't [00:04:36] Dave: injured. [00:04:37] Sean: you'd [00:04:37] Dave: healed up point. Exactly. I healed up 'cause I'd been not climbing for two years and, uh, started climbing regularly, exclusively outdoors. And that was the thing I said, I'm gonna climb outdoors because I got injured in the gym. So maybe I'll try, maybe I'll get a dog. and, and just become an exclusive outdoor climber because maybe the injury potential will be less than on the, gym. That is true. The, uh, nature of the incu holds and pockets and these kind of things that you dynamic movement at a lower level of rock climbing, you don't get the same kind of dynamic movement on granite at a low level here because, the rock doesn't give you the holds for that. And so it does kind of ease you into a more fingertip based climbing rather than a, you know, you're not grabbing a jug, having a foot slip and then shock loading your, exactly your novice tendons and pulleys. And so I think it actually did work out. And, uh, yeah, through that second reintroduction into climbing, I, met Ben at the Rock court 'cause now I was back at Dow Li living in Halifax, and we were out climbing one day. And he said, you know, it'd be cool as if we filmed all the climbs in Nova Scotia and put them on the internet. This is, [00:05:47] Sean: this is, uh, Ben Smith we're talking about. Yeah. Smithville and Gimme, gimme a year. [00:05:51] Dave: We're in 2011 At this time, I'd been back in Halifax for two years, climbing exclusively outdoors and sort of reengaging with, some of my peers in the community. I met Ben at the rock court and we're, we're climbing together a night session, outside night session or at the laundromat. I have a video camera at the time, which, um, was very rudimentary. This is before iPhone. This is, uh, before really YouTube was very, uh, nascent. Totally. You know, there wasn't a lot of, there wasn't. It was social media. Again, same thing. Nascent and, Ben we're, climbing at the laundromat and I'm playing with my video camera more than anything, just for. Something to do. I've always been interested in photography and videography as completely aside from rock climbing. Ben said, you know, maybe we should film all of the, all of the, it'd be cool if there was a database where we could, we could film all of the climbs and, have them recorded and have the, beta online. And, uh, you know, we could do a website with, with video and, and photos and, and, GPS and all of these things. And, um, [00:06:58] Sean: now what at, like, Zig had something going on. I forget it. It was like he had Zig TV and he was cataloging roots online. [00:07:09] Dave: Yeah. So Zig had did the original guidebook, so the paper guidebook, Halifax Bouldering would, it's up behind you somewhere. That's right, yeah. Which was what everybody was using the authoritative resource for bouldering. But it was getting a little bit older at that time, and I thought it would be cool to have a digital version of that. And so I was very much inspired by what had Zig had done, but thought that, photo and video and GPS and that this would be the way forward, which of course nowadays is becoming the standard for all climbing areas with these, uh, large climbing databases and commercialized offerings such as, uh, Kaya or the Craig and so on. The digital guidebook space is in 2025, is now. It's, going to become the, it's gonna become the standard. But we're, in 2011 and Ben thought, you know, it'll be cool as if, you know, we're basically envisioning cutting edge. we're envisioning what is now, 14 years later become, becoming the, uh, the standard for all climbing areas. But we were sitting out there and I'm filming a video and Ben thought, yeah, this would be a great idea. And so that I, set to work basically in 2011, 14 years. 14 years, yeah. With a goal of climbing and documenting everything that was in Zigs original guidebook. So that, was my original motivation and goal was to, yeah. Was to get, uh, on video every single climb in Halifax bouldering. [00:08:35] Sean: Which, the, um, the fallout from that, or the, the benefit documentation for everybody else, but also you experience all those problems and probably help advance your, like you steadily. Ticked off everything. [00:08:48] Dave: Yeah. Well, probably. Right. So That's right. You got [00:08:50] Sean: better through that process Alone [00:08:52] Dave: in incredible. you know, it's funny because the time at, in 2011 when I set my sights on this goal of documenting all of Nova Scotia bouldering, sort of established in Inland's guidebook, I didn't have the capability to do even a third of it. Right. I was not at the start. Yeah. At the start, I was not climbing at a level where it was even feasible. [00:09:15] Sean: Yeah. What, kind of level would you be at at that time? Do you remember? [00:09:18] Dave: V four V five, but that's not, uh, all v fours and v fives, you know, as everybody knows, I'm, I'm a V four. That's right. There's a big difference between climbing a V five and climbing all v fives. Oh man. [00:09:30] Sean: That is so, so true. And on the root side of things, like, I've climbed hard here, but I still think of myself as a five 10 climber in a lot of ways. That's right. Yeah. 'cause five 10 means a lot of different things. Right. And I'm not a master of all those different things. [00:09:44] Dave: Well, and I've been always such a, um. Completionist and such a volume orientated climber that if you would, to ask me today what my climbing grade is, I'm gonna say something much more conservative. I'll probably say what my consolidated grade is, like, what I can do everything of. 'cause that's because those are the terms in which I think, right, because that's, that was foundational. Yeah, [00:10:03] Sean: yeah, yeah. question for you, but interesting to hear you're a volumous. 'cause I think I'm a little bit like that too. I like to do a bunch of different things or as many things as I can, as opposed to focusing too heavily on projecting one thing. But now I think, are you still a volumous? You're like, no, you're like, totally, I wish on like one problem for like three, four months. Right. Well, you're [00:10:26] Dave: skipping ahead, right? So, we're still in 2011. Okay, so you're skipping ahead until 2025. Geez. I [00:10:32] Sean: gotta get some more batteries for this, thing. [00:10:34] Dave: The issue is, um, the goal was to complete everything, but I needed to level up in order to get there. And so that's where all of the other projects that have become associated with my original climbing project, which, was just to climb everything evolved because I needed a path forward. But then as you progress through the sport, it, it's naturally gonna change your engagement with it. And the other thing that I've always been pretty good at is just reinventing the game to keep myself, uh, fully engaged. I can't be a vol anymore because I've run out of things to climb. Of course, I've, of course. Yeah. and just the same way that, once I did all the fours and fives and sixes and sevens and eights and nines and tens, you, you can see that. You can see the thing. The problem is [00:11:21] Sean: there's fewer and fewer and it's harder. There's fewer and fewer, [00:11:24] Dave: and it's harder and harder. So then I have to focus to, to. Realize my goal of full completion, I have to up my game. I have to improve my, um, my climbing. You know, I have, I have to find a way forward, and that's not easy. And so it's getting harder and harder, and there's fewer and fewer lines. And so I'm just naturally adapting. And my true love would be just to, climb a new single day challenge every single day for the rest of my life. but, but you're, you've run out. But I ran out of that. Yeah. Interesting. And so if I could go back to those days, yeah. Those were probably the, well, I don't know. I mean, to say what the most fun has been. What, what have I, what have I enjoyed? it's, uh, yeah. It's, it's different. [00:12:05] Sean: So you mentioned kind of reinventing yourself a few times along the way. Yes. Has that been a conscious thing or is it just kind of naturally happened? [00:12:14] Dave: Well, it's been necessary. [00:12:17] Sean: Yeah. Right, [00:12:18] Dave: Because So meaning [00:12:18] Sean: you, you kind of got bored at certain points. No. Or you got unmotivated? No, you get [00:12:22] Dave: stuck. You get stuck. Like there's no clear path. So how do you go from being a V four climber to being a V 13 climber? There's no clear path there. Right, And, and there's no guarantee you're ever gonna make it either. So if my goal is to, to was to do everything that, but I need, I needed to, I needed somehow to make that happen. And what would happen is, is that at various points, I got stuck. So I get to a certain level and I'd climb basically more or less everything at that level with, you know, a few outliers here and there, but with no clear path to the next level. And so that's when the reinvention happens, right? So I see where I wanna be, but I'm not there. That's when the focus shifts and the game changes, and you reinvent your way forward. [00:13:00] Sean: Where would you look, where would you look to find out how to reinvent yourself? Was this all self-driven and create created from, from your, your mind? Or were you reading books or? Was there online stuff at [00:13:13] Dave: the time or, well, even today, the, uh, online resources are very poor. That's why the mainstream information with regards to sort of how to get, how to improve at climbing doesn't really work. And everybody kind of knows. Interesting. Everybody kind of knows that, right? Because if it did work, then people wouldn't get stuck. But they, you know, you've been, you've been around for a long time and you've, you had your own journey in climbing and everybody kind of knows everybody kind of gets to a level and then you spend many, many years at that same flat Flat line. Flat line. Exactly. And so I, I did that. I, I got to my flat line and I wanted to progress, but nothing I did was working. And then you look for online resources. Certainly. I read books. I read books in climbing. I read books in other sports to see if any of it would translate to climbing. So, but there, there was nothing that really worked and that's when I had to start innovating. [00:14:07] Sean: Very cool because I mean that flat line you talk about, like, I think we all have different motivations. Right. For me, I, I was pushing myself as much as I could at a certain time, but I never liked working too hard. Yeah. I, I never, I was never like, I gotta get to this next level and how do I get there? Like, I was never that driven. So, [00:14:28] Dave: but even if you were, you still would flatline, it might just be at some, it might be at a slightly different, smidge higher. That's right. Gotcha. Smidge higher. Exactly. 'cause everybody does, right. I mean, just look at everybody who's ever been in the community. They all have a certain trajectory and then they have a sort of productive plateau where they do like most of their climbing. but it's, but people don't. Get better forever. They, they don't, uh, my, my plateau was too low. you know, my natural plateau was too low to, for your own liking? Well, not for my own liking, for my goal of, of getting all the climbs done. Yeah. Like, no, I'm still on the mission. Like, [00:14:59] Sean: you, you won't, you, have to see everything to completion, don't you? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. This is why I started it. This is an [00:15:04] Dave: obsession. I can't, I can't stop. I can never stop. [00:15:09] Sean: Awesome. [00:15:10] Dave: And so, um, you know, and so yeah, so I, I looked everywhere I could look and I read everything I could read, but there still is a large amount of experimentation that has to take place. You, eventually just commit to something, [00:15:22] Sean: does it work or not? And see [00:15:22] Dave: if it works or not. [00:15:23] Sean: Yeah. [00:15:24] Dave: and, you know, that's what I did. And. There was a, a solid 10 years where I was motivated, like you say, uh, I never, I was, uh, I never minded grinding. [00:15:38] Sean: No, You're, you're a grinder. [00:15:39] Dave: Yeah, I'm a grinder. Yeah. But still, I wasn't finding that way forward and so, yeah. Okay. So that's when, uh, that's when I started innovating out of necessity. [00:15:48] Sean: So what was your first, uh, experiment in innovation or, or major step, let's say? [00:15:54] Dave: Oh. Oh, goodness. that is a little too open-ended. [00:16:00] Sean: Okay. How about, and I'm gonna mess up the chronology here and you can jump on me again, but, at some stage in there, I think you had your own home wall, right? And you were trying to get stronger focused in there. Is that correct? [00:16:15] Dave: So I plateaued in about 2013 at the end of my medical residency. Okay. And I also took a job in New Brunswick, which pulled me away from the Nova Scotia climbing scene for a few years. What level were you plateauing at that point? Uh, V nine. V nine, okay. Yeah, and I just couldn't really get past that. The double digits it well. Yeah. And in Nova Scotia, there's a real harsh, there's, a real harsh, jump at that level. There's sort of all the lines, everybody gets done, and I did all of those ones. And, you know, we're thinking about, um, all the, uh, you know what it really is, there's all the lines that Nick Sagar developed and did the first ascent on, and then there's Ghislain's hardest. [00:16:56] Sean: Okay. Explain, explain, explain what you're saying. Well, saying there's, [00:16:58] Dave: there's quite a jump there. [00:17:00] Sean: So gilan stuff is a, is kind of harder than, it's a step above. [00:17:04] Dave: It's a step above, uh, s garbs. Yeah. [00:17:07] Sean: and, and, and maybe he is, you're doing something similar to what Zig was doing. Maybe you're kind of leapfrogging. So I'm guessing Zig maybe launched off of and was inspired by Nick's. That's right. Pushing levels. Yeah. And similarly, or you can explain how you got there, but you, you kind of. [00:17:22] Dave: Exactly. Yeah. She stood [00:17:23] Sean: on those shoulders. [00:17:24] Dave: Well, that's what the whole history of climbing has been, has been, you know, um, standing on the shoulders, of the developers who came before you and then trying to make your own addition. But what was happening is, is that, that I, I have a whole video on the difference between Nick and Ghislain's. Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to find it. Yeah. So that's that's a, that's a little bit of a rabbit hole on its own. Okay. But Zig came up, adapted to the local style here, and so he mastered The, the, the strength that he developed, in his, um, in his forearms was very specific to our Nova Scotia granite. Nick was an international pro, you know, an international pro. [00:18:06] Sean: Yeah. Climbing roots and Boulder. He was probably predominantly a rope climber. Exactly. Nick was Right. [00:18:11] Dave: And so he would come here in the off season and, you know, establish some of, you know, at that time Nova Scotia's hardest problems. But those were not problems that were, in, our style. Interesting. Yeah. And so because of that, they were much more, friendly to gym climbers, people with that kind of a background. [00:18:30] Sean: Oh. And they had real holds for, they had real holds. They had bigger [00:18:33] Dave: holds. Yeah. They had more straightforward power. Yeah. More powerful movement. Yeah. And more, and frankly, less nuance. And, that's how it goes. The developers will. End up developing the lines that they excel at. And so he developed in that, style and Zig developed at the similar level if you were to look at the grade on the rock climb. [00:18:53] Sean: Mm-hmm. [00:18:54] Dave: But in a much more difficult, um, style. In a much more difficult style because it's much more nuanced. It's somebody with a lot more local knowledge and local volume and with the strengths that are specifically adapted to the local rock. Interesting. And so that's kind of where I hit a wall, just through doing cli. Just try, try hard volume. I couldn't really get past Nick's hardest lot or I couldn't. I, got to sort of nick's hardest lines, but I, I couldn't break into Ghislain's hardest. And that's where I got stuck. And then my, my medical residency ended and I left Nova Scotia. And so then I'm sort of cast out into the wilderness. And I'm also, at the same time I'm hitting that long-term plateau where I'm not getting any further additional progress. So this is when I went to New Brunswick Yeah. To begin my career. Oh, cool. [00:19:43] Sean: Fredericton, or [00:19:44] Dave: I was in St. John. [00:19:45] Sean: How'd you like [00:19:45] Dave: that? It was a great place, um, to practice medicine. [00:19:49] Sean: Okay. [00:19:50] Dave: Yeah. Uh, the rock climbing is not great. There is now, but at the time there, there is a [00:19:54] Sean: lot happening now, but I don't know about the boulders necessarily. The boulders down, so [00:19:59] Dave: the boulders down the coastline near St. George. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where my buddy Seb has been developing are pretty spectacular. Oh, okay. But those weren't really known about at the time, and it was a, just a local rope climbing scene. And so again, I didn't have access to bouldering and, uh, so I set my sights onto trying to develop training protocols that would allow me to make that jump into the higher tier of established problems in Nova Scotia. And so that's when I, uh, rented the storage locker. Because, there wasn't a bouldering gym, so I thought, I'll build a moon board. But I lived in a small apartment and there wasn't space inside for it, nor was there ceiling height. So I, uh, went to Apple self storage, rented a decently sized, storage unit, clandestinely cut the chicken wire on the top of the storage unit so that I could extend my moon board out above the height limit. And, uh, I train, I, I climbed and trained in there for several years, and that's where again, I started making for a, it took a lot of experimentation, a lot of research, a lot of trial and error. But then I started making forward progress again. [00:21:03] Sean: All by yourself? Were you self motivated through that whole period? [00:21:06] Dave: Yeah, well, I was, uh, the only access to a gym I had was in f Fredericton, new Brunswick, actually. The, um, the university gym there. I like that. Super old [00:21:15] Sean: school. [00:21:15] Dave: Well, that was Zigs home gym, right? Yeah. And that was, uh, John Bowles was out of there and, and Mitch [00:21:19] Sean: Mitch the ball. [00:21:20] Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so there was, and uh, and Nick said Nick and Heather sort of did have a tie with, uh, that group of climbers as well. [00:21:27] Sean: Oh, neat. [00:21:29] Dave: and so. It was kind of an extension of the, uh, Nova Scotia community, like a sister community, if you will, because I mean, our strongest climber, Gilan was out of Fredericton. Right. Ben Blakeney was out of New Brunswick as well. Oh man. Yeah. And so heavy hitters here. But, and while John, uh, balls, he won Canadian nationals at Tour de Block. Wow. you know, you have a national level climber climbing outta that gym. And what that speaks to is, um, the importance of the right climbing culture, because Fredericton is not a large population center. Right. So how does the strongest climber in Canada, arguably that year, Uh, how, did they come out of a, a gym in, uh, in Fredericton, new Brunswick, which is a tiny backwater really. They had the, like you see in, uh, a lot of European gyms, they, had a good culture of hard climbing. So if you go to France, you'll, you'll see that. [00:22:19] Sean: Me. It's normalized. Hard climbing is just normal. Exactly. Normal. That's right. And, [00:22:24] Dave: uh, and you know, you go to France obviously with, with font there and with a long climbing history and, a large population center, well, then you get the best climbers in the very, in the world. [00:22:32] Sean: Mm-hmm. [00:22:33] Dave: But, but even a, even a small backwater like Fredericton, new Brunswick, uh, no offense if Fredic is listening, they won't be listening. Yeah. But, uh, can still produce a national level climber, you know, with the right culture of, uh, of hard climbing. And so [00:22:49] Sean: Cool. Cool. So you got plugged in when you were training in your locker? [00:22:52] Dave: Yeah. In St. [00:22:52] Sean: John. You would pop [00:22:53] Dave: up? I would pop periodically, pop, and John Bowles would be there. And, uh, he's, and uh, and that's where I met my buddy Seb and sort of Okay. He was my, would go on to sort of, what's [00:23:03] Sean: Sebs last name? [00:23:04] Dave: Pacey Smith. [00:23:05] Sean: Okay. [00:23:06] Dave: he, would go on to be my sort of long distance training partner. Nice. In that era. Cool. and. Seb has gone on to be a, you know, a very strong climber. He, uh, just won a world championship for, uh, grip sport in Las Vegas. [00:23:23] Sean: No way. Yeah. Is he using the hand of God? [00:23:26] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:29] Sean: Cool. We'll get, we'll get there a little bit later. Yeah. So, so we're [00:23:31] Dave: producing, uh, we're producing world class, uh, grip strength athletes, uh, here now in the, in, in our small backwater Amazing Eastern Canada. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. But yeah, so I, I met Seb and I trained in the storage locker as life would have it. I had a job opportunity back in Halifax. I came back and I wasted, well, actually, you know what? It's funny. I had a job opportunity back in Halifax. I came back to Halifax, said, do you know what I did? I rented another storage locker and put a moon board in it. Yeah. Because that's at that, it, it works. It works. You know. It works. Yeah. You can do it again. Exactly. That's what I was into at the time, and it did take me about a year to re-engage with the outdoor climbing. But when I did, when I finally got sucked in again for the, the second, really the third time, this would be my third time engaging with Nova Scotia climbing. 'cause I'd gone away Sure. Two times. And I just really hit the ground running. And that it, it was on at this point. And I was going to finish the goal of climbing absolutely everything because I had a way forward from a, from a strength perspective. I could finally get my hand strength up to where it needed to be to get all the climbs done. And I just needed to get volume on rock to get my skill up to the point where I could do the more nuanced climbs. And Jesus lands harder style, like I alluded to. And yeah, the rest is history. that would've been in 2019. 2020. And I mean, you could just look at my YouTube history. I, I, climbed, everything. [00:24:55] Sean: You had finally completed that project. Completed the project started [00:24:58] Dave: in, uh, 2011. Project finally got completed probably around 20 21, 20 22. That's 10 year. 10 year journey. 10 year journey. I did. All of Ghislain's climbs and all, you know, the most, like all the obscure ones. I got a boat, Cian's Echo. I did, I did Cian's Echo here. on, on River Road. I got a boat so that I could do, uh, my new papa alone. Like, I mean, I, I I was a completionist. It all had to get done, so. Cool. [00:25:26] Sean: Had, did you celebrate in some way? [00:25:28] Dave: Well, you know, the funny part is, is that I couldn't exactly tell you the day when it all ended. It just kind of tapered off. There was fewer and fewer lines left and I would get another one done and yeah. And eventually I looked around and what am I gonna climb today? And it started, that's, when I, yeah, that's when I had to change the game again and say, okay, the local climbing has been a, has been a progression of standing on the shoulders of the developers who came before you. And I completed everything basically that Nick and Zig had done. So it was time to make my own contribution. And that's when I started. Developing lines for the very first time. [00:26:08] Sean: You must have during that, you're, ticking all those roots. Yep. Over the years, you must have spied lines at that point. That inspired perhaps and maybe looked too hard at the time, or you must have had built up a catalog of potential projects or, or was that not the case? You, you weren't even looking at, you were, you were focused on the other goal. I wasn't even [00:26:28] Dave: looking. And, you know, the other thing too is I've always, so some people that's, this [00:26:34] Sean: is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So how [00:26:35] Dave: do I say, how do I say this nicely? Some people like to do, some people really want to do first descent. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And they wanna do first a sense. Way, way earlier in the climbing journey than where I was. [00:26:50] Sean: yeah. I, that came into my head. As soon as you, [00:26:52] Dave: yeah. And you know, when you do, when you do everything that somebody's done, like when you do, you know, you climb everything that there is to climb in the guide. You climb out the whole guidebook, you do all of Ghislain's lines, you do all of Nick Sagar's lines, you do all of the lines from the generation before that [00:27:09] Sean: you, [00:27:10] Dave: certain developers, they have a certain almost character. I was gonna [00:27:13] Sean: ask you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You [00:27:14] Dave: can, you can feel like, you know, a, a zig line or a nick line. Interesting. And you can, 'cause you're having that shared experience with them. Yeah. But you can also sort of feel their development ethos. Like the problem is the problem. That's cool. The problem is the problem. But certain people are drawn to certain problems. Right. Their, [00:27:29] Sean: their particular strengths. Exactly. Inspiration. Yeah. 'cause. It's interesting you say that's clearly evident in bouldering on the, on the route climbing side of things. There's a certain, uh, I guess the same thing, right? What the style you're attracted to. Yeah. And, you know, the, if it's a sport route or you know, how, how you bolt the route, it's very evident, you know, what developer does. Yeah. What, but anyways, go back to this. Uh, well, you can style feel from the d That's right. [00:27:56] Dave: Yeah. So the style feel. But, so what happened to me is that there would always be like the one-offs, there'd be somebody who didn't really contribute much to the, um, to the climbing legacy locally as a whole, but they'd have one first descent. Right, You know, like, me. Well, or, [00:28:14] Sean: uh, Tim Keel [00:28:15] Dave: maybe. No, yeah. I wasn't even thinking about the, yeah. I wasn't thinking about more so many of those guys. It would be somebody who was more integrated. 'cause those were people on away trips who would come and they would do, they, they would just get a line done. Chris Eager. Who, [00:28:28] Sean: who come, who's coming to mind? Who's in your mind when you, well, so [00:28:30] Dave: Chris Eager some, so I, some of Chris Eager's lines are my all time favorite. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Uh, big respect to, uh, to some of the lines, Chris, like, buckle up is one of the best lines out there at V eight, like phenomenal. and I wanted to get your take on some of, again, same thing though, right? Like big tuna, I think is another Chris Eager line and like, you know, another phenomenal line, like, is [00:28:50] Sean: that duck head? [00:28:51] Dave: No, big, big tuna is at Polly's Cove. so, oh, okay. So Chris had an eye for, uh, I, I really enjoy, Chris's lines. [00:29:01] Sean: Awesome. [00:29:02] Dave: but then there would be people who developed lines that I didn't like so much. And the, thing that those, they, the thing generally in common there was that they didn't have much mileage. [00:29:14] Sean: The developer didn't. Yeah. Or problem. Exactly. [00:29:17] Dave: Yeah. The developer didn't have much mileage and they would if it kind, it kind of felt like they were sending a line to like, to claim a line. Right. To just Oh, [00:29:24] Sean: so it kind of contrived. [00:29:25] Dave: Yeah. In many cases. Well, there's lots of things wrong with those lines, sometimes contrived, yeah. Anyway, I, I don't wanna get too much. Sure, sure, sure. I don't wanna get too much into it, but that's fine. But what, what that I noticed is that when developers jumped into developing without, getting a lot of mileage on established problems, I, didn't like what I saw. Interesting. [00:29:52] Sean: Yeah. I, I know what you're saying. [00:29:54] Dave: Yeah. even some, sometimes somebody's like first lines, right? Like even some of you know, Zig is a phenomenal developer, but some of his very earliest aren't his best, uh, in the very, very early era. And I noticed that early on, and I was always worried about that. Worried about that. If I didn't, if I didn't have the experience to really contribute something of value, then I might bot it. Botch it. Yeah, exactly. And so, so I, and, I might've went, you know, I went pretty hard in the other direction and literally climbed everything before I, did the first line of my own. [00:30:29] Sean: Do you remember what that was? Your first foray into? Uh, my first foray. Yeah. Development. It's gotta be three star route, right? Three star problem. No, no. Well, it was, it's [00:30:37] Dave: phenomenal. But yeah. Refined line. [00:30:39] Sean: Refined line. Yeah. How hard is that one? V 11. That was your first Boulder problem that you contributed. Yeah. [00:30:47] Dave: And, and also it's beautiful. I'm [00:30:49] Sean: like, where's this one? And then I apologize for my ignorance, you know, if there's, gonna be boulders listening to this and you're like, of course. That's at Polly's Go. Or, uh, I don't know. It's in [00:30:58] Dave: Grover. [00:30:59] Sean: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, cool. [00:31:02] Dave: And so, yeah, so, so what it was is it was a Nick Sagar line, refine line or fine line. Okay. That suffered a, a serious break to the point that, uh, it's became an entirely new problem. [00:31:14] Sean: Gotcha. Nice, rename. Yeah. [00:31:16] Dave: Well, and fine line still exists. It can be done as a stand start and refine line is, uh, so as a stand it goes at V nine, um, which would've been around the original grade. And, uh, but the sit adds, uh, significant difficulty a a lot more climbing and just really changes the experience. So, uh, yeah. So the refined line was the, uh, low start after, after a break of, uh, of fine line. Yeah. It was a pretty strong, uh, it was a pretty strong opening contribution. I think [00:31:45] Sean: that's, [00:31:45] Dave: yeah. You came it beautiful. You came by swinging. It's a very beautiful V 11 too. It's not, uh, yeah, it's not just about difficulty. The, uh, well, the, [00:31:52] Sean: the aesthetics of aligned means a lot, right? Yeah. Like, just to get you pumped and like, I'm gonna put everything into this and Right. Figure it out, even though if it's way above my. Capabilities at this particular moment. [00:32:03] Dave: Exactly, yeah. And so strong aesthetics and, uh, really my first, serious project, uh, Ben had been working it, um, as a project, but at that point he had already moved away to Los Angeles. And so it, it was a lot to ask to do that one, uh, on a road trip. And, um, he got very close on one of his road trips and, uh, that was the season before. And then I set my sights on that line and had success. And yeah, that was a hard one to, uh, uh, a hard one to start with because how are you gonna, how are you gonna top that refined line? It was a hard first outing Yes. To top. [00:32:41] Sean: Oh, oh, okay. I see. I see. Yeah. Yeah, Gotcha. Uh, can I ask you about grading? Yeah. Because I mean, there's probably, there's no one in the province I would say, who has climbed all the ticked, all the roots, yes. All the problems around. Yeah. So I think. Someone like yourself would be in a unique position to ca you have your own calibration on that and probably a pretty good one. Yeah. But I, you know, I do hear from people saying, oh, Dave's always downgrading problems. And I think they're probably pissed that they, take the a v nine or something and now it's a V eight, so they don't have the V nine ticker. I, I don't know why people care so much, but what is your, what is your perspective on that, establishing grades for older problems? [00:33:30] Dave: Yeah, I mean that's, uh, it, it's interesting because, there was a major problem in Nova Scotia grading and, you know, I'm setting out on a guidebook problem, or sorry, when I, I'm setting out on a, guidebook project and the easy thing to do would just be to leave everything as it was, right? Because that doesn't ruffle any feathers. And that's what was done to some extent. In earlier, guidebooks, because if you talk to the guidebook author, behind the scenes one-on-one, they disagree with the grades in their own book. [00:34:03] Sean: But they were just carrying on a legacy of what Yeah. ' [00:34:06] Dave: cause that's, that's the easy thing to do. Yeah. And unfortunately, fortunately, or unfortunately, a perfection, in addition to being a completionist, I'm also a perfectionist. And so I was unwilling to leave things, because there was a major problem. There was a major problem with grade consistency between the two top developers in Nova Scotia, Ghislain's and Nick. [00:34:27] Sean: Mm. They had [00:34:27] Dave: different styles. They had different strengths. And it was causing, it, it was even more fundamental than that. they, had completely different, what, well, something I talk about a lot and the training side of things is they had completely different forearm specialization between their dominant finger flexors. Okay. Yeah. You're [00:34:49] Sean: going deep now. Okay. Well, I'm going [00:34:50] Dave: deep. Yeah, because it, but it does, it, it, but it matters. Right? And, this is, uh, an insight that is clarifying, you know, the more and more I work on the training side of things, but, but it was clear to me even at an earlier stage that there was a major discrepancy between the grading standards, depending on who the developer of that line for sure was. Yeah. Um, and zigs stuff, which is natural. Yeah, exactly. And so Zigs stuff was significantly more d it was significantly more difficult and also graded to a much harder standard. So it was a double whammy. It was harder to begin with and it had a lower number on it. So was he sandbagging. He wasn't sandbagging. No. [00:35:35] Sean: So, and his, his level was calibrated exactly probably from other [00:35:39] Dave: areas. His level was calibrated from massive amounts of volume here on Nova Scotia granite. So it was, it was the consistent standard. It was the standard where you could do a V five, a six, a seven, an eight, a nine, a 10, and an 11. And there would be a natural and, good. This is harder. This is harder than That's exactly. So the gradient would make sense and you could progress. And like, so why does it even matter? Because when you're trying to develop as a climber, you wanna be pointed towards the next most appropriate challenge because that's gonna be the way that you're gonna develop in the, best, fashion when there's big jumps or you have, um, performance that seemingly doesn't make sense. Like, so what's happened to some people is that they'll do a grade that's much higher than anything they've done before, and then they go looking for the next hardest thing. Not possible. Not possible, yeah. Right. Yeah. And it's because. [00:36:31] Sean: It's because the, that's an out, that was an outlier for that number. Yeah. Or the number wasn't Right. But what about, we already talked about the differences in styles and how, you might find a particular V eight suits your body and your power level or whatever, and Yeah. The next V eight might be impossible for you, even though it is still a V eight. Well, [00:36:52] Dave: that's entirely true. [00:36:53] Sean: Yeah. And [00:36:53] Dave: entirely possible. But that's not really what, what the issue was when I was adjusting things for my guide project, because there was major inconsistencies. You had v eights that were called V 10 and you had Yeah. Like many, such cases. Many such cases. Right, right. And that's, that's a more substantial and fundamental problem because what you're talking about, well, that's the reason why if you're going to do a guidebook project and you're going to be suggesting grades for it, you need to climb everything. Because like when you talk about this style or that style, well, I've climbed all of the styles, like Right. I did all the different ones. And you also have to have a meta awareness of where your personal strengths and weaknesses lie. Sure. Because when you get really nuanced and calibrated in your grading, you don't simply grade on what I thought that it felt like there's a lot more factors that go into it than that. Right. It's like, what, what did I, how hard did I think that it felt? And then, and how does that interact with my own personal strengths and weaknesses at this particular level? [00:37:55] Sean: But on some, on some level, most areas it's kind of like, you know, there's different individuals, different heights, strengths, body types, whatever. And, and, the meaning becomes kind of silly. So at some point, well, of course where a five, five. [00:38:12] Dave: like I climb with Jen, that's one. She's one of my main climbing partners. Yeah. Right. [00:38:16] Sean: Yeah. [00:38:17] Dave: And, you know, yeah. How, how tall is Jen? 5 0 5 2 or something. Five two. Yeah. Like very small. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but she, she can just crush anything it seems. Well, until she can't Right. There's V fives that Jen hasn't done. Right. And, and, but Jen's done V 10, so a V five that gen can't do. Does that make it a V 10? Right. [00:38:35] Sean: Oh, so my point was gonna get, it was going towards like, it's, in most areas it becomes a consensus grading, where if there's enough, and that's maybe the other problem. There's not enough climbers doing everything or everything at a certain grade to really say this is, this should go up or down. [00:38:50] Dave: I have something like 52nd descents. Yeah. So what do you do with that? right. we don't have consensus for a huge number of our, our problems. And of course, I, uh, when I was adjusting grades for the guidebook project, you know, there were certain trusted individuals that you would rely on for consensus. Because remember, consensus isn't. It's not a democracy. It's like, if, you know, if it's your f if, if it's your first time in Nova Scotia, you don't necessarily get a vote in our guidebook. You know, you're gonna go to other people who are doing volume, who are reflective, who have a lot of experience with grading and, uh, and ask for their opinions. And, and of course that was taken into account on any of the claims that got changed. it, it was never a unilateral decision, although it might seem like that from the outside. but it's a consensus among people who have a lot of, have a lot, of basis for comparison. 'cause what happens is, is that, The ones that have been the most controversial have been when you, it's somebody's first V 10. [00:39:48] Sean: But you know what? [00:39:49] Dave: Oh, I know, totally. It was a V You took that away from me. But it was a V eight. and of course it was 'cause it was your first, so it was likely to be an easy example of that grade. But if you've only done one of that grade, what is the basis for comparison? And then what, and what is the basis for complaint? You know, when you, when you look at the grade being changed subsequently, [00:40:08] Sean: it makes perfect sense to me that, that you would take that step and calibrate everything. And I think that's, a good thing. Like I, when I think about the root side of things, it's still, it's a complete mess. And there's a, there's a historic kind of like sand baggy thing, which is, which is fine. Like there's areas that are sand baggy and they have a, they have a harder grading sale for that locality. But where you've got totally dis, what's the word? Disproportionate dis out of the line. Yeah. Discrepant, Grades out there, it, it becomes difficult. So I think there's a need on the root climb side to [00:40:47] Dave: rectify that for some, for someone to come through, climb literally everything. Yeah. And try and smooth it out. And that's, that's what I, that's, that was part of the project, right. In addition to documenting everything, it was also documenting me was, meant filming the climb and sort of like, you know, having it documented in that way. But it, but it also meant like accurate descriptions and, accurate grades. That was part of the project. And so, and the, and the, and that was also part of the drive to, to have so much basis for comparison and, do every example that I could find of a particular style. And, like you said earlier, I mean the benefits to your own personal climbing from that kind of, getting outside your comfort zone and just doing all the styles that you hate the most. Like for example, you know, if you asked me 10, five years ago even, what do you think of slab? Yeah. nobody likes that. Nobody likes slab. Right, Exactly. Really? Yeah. no, except that, I love slab climbing now. [00:41:44] Sean: Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. I've gone on [00:41:46] Dave: to, I've gone on to develop an entire boulder full of Nova Scotia's hardest slabs, which is, which Boulder is that? Uh, windy Boulder in Grover. Cool. yeah. And they're the hardest slab climbs you'll find anywhere in Nova Scotia. [00:42:00] Sean: So Cool. Goes to show you to go where you're not comfortable. Absolutely. And you might uncover some gems. [00:42:05] Dave: And I didn't just get it done, but I, I, I learned to, I learned to enjoy the process quite a, lot actually. There's something contemplative about slab climbing. Are [00:42:13] Sean: you a crack climber now? No. No. Never. [00:42:15] Dave: Crack is the space between rock climbs. [00:42:18] Sean: That's space climbing. So let's jump you, you, we've talked about the guidebook project Mo, the mo beta online guide. [00:42:26] Dave: Right. Which, [00:42:26] Sean: which has, like, at my count, I took a look at, it's like a thousand, almost a thousand problems or right around there. [00:42:32] Dave: Yeah. And there would be more, [00:42:35] Sean: Right that are offline because of private property issues, either, either access [00:42:40] Dave: issues or, there's a sort of a, a lower bar for quality, that probably excluded another 400 problems. Oh my God. [00:42:49] Sean: Yeah. I mean the, the layout and the functionality of that site is amazing. I mean, it's a beautiful site. The, you know, the, the aerial photography overlay with the different polygons for different sections and different boulder, yeahs click on them. Yeah. It works really well. Yeah. so kudos to that. It's just, just phenomenal. Is that, did you and, um, create that, was that your Yeah. So creative, uh, approach because, or is it, or is it common [00:43:19] Dave: everywhere? No, that's, uh, that's a one-off. And, uh, yeah, I'm super happy with the result. There's a, a lot of similar services now that are, like I alluded to earlier, that are coming on the scene and it's becoming the standard now or the norm to have digital guidebooks, but the user interface still for any of these commercial products isn't meant to be used out at the boulders in the same way. but yours is Yes, exactly. Yours is [00:43:42] Sean: quite functional out there. Yeah, [00:43:43] Dave: exactly. So, because I, I grew up with the paper guidebook, right? Yeah. So it was always about being able to use it at the boulders. [00:43:50] Sean: Yeah. So it, let's talk about that because I mean, it makes perfect sense that the future is digital guides because it's more, you can filter stuff down. You're not, you're not flipping so much. Yeah. [00:44:03] Dave: They can, be updated, right? That's right. That's, uh, one of the main, they're never if, they, they're a living document as long as somebody's still contributing is, so, [00:44:10] Sean: is there a place for printed guides anymore, you think? Or maybe it depends on the person. [00:44:16] Dave: You know, it's funny, it's funny. Um, I feel like that is. A question that is, um, just gonna come down to your right. Your, your personal values. You could [00:44:26] Sean: equally say, should there be libraries anymore? [00:44:28] Dave: Exactly. That's right. Or books. Yeah. Yeah. Or, printed books. Yeah. Books at all. Yeah. And so ultimately Yeah, that's a, that's a bigger question that I don't want to, uh, sure I can answer for myself. Yeah. But, I can't answer for, uh, other people. Well, that [00:44:43] Sean: makes perfect sense. Different users have different needs. I like reading proper books. [00:44:47] Dave: Yeah. [00:44:48] Sean: It, I mean, I'm, I'm not talking about guidebook, I'm talking about novel. I have never novels and things. I have [00:44:52] Dave: never found paper guidebooks to be in any way functional. When you go on a trip, and if all that exists for that area is a paper guidebook Yeah. It is a nightmare to try and find, like, how do you find what you wanna clock? A hundred percent. Yeah. So you gotta go to the index. You gotta look up the grade that you're looking for. Right. because you, you wanna know the approximate difficulty, and then you're gonna, you're, and then you're gonna go through the index, and then you're gonna flip back to the page number and you're gonna keep, repeat that process. A hundred times and it's all gonna blend together in your mind. It's just, it's a, it's a horrible experience. [00:45:20] Sean: Tick marks and like sticky tabs. Exactly. Sticky, sticky notes and stuff. Exactly. [00:45:23] Dave: Versus, you know, uh, if you were to go to my website, you could just go, I want three star v sevens. Oh, I know. In this area. Boom. And it just gives you the list. It's so [00:45:31] Sean: cool. how do you know how many users are, can you tell through your web statistics how many users are, have, used that? Or how, how do you measure [00:45:42] Dave: Haveve used my website or, or that function in particular? The, [00:45:44] Sean: the, the guidebook on mo beta. [00:45:45] Dave: Oh, it, it, which is moab [00:45:46] Sean: beta.ca. [00:45:47] Dave: Right. If anybody, it's funny, it's funny. Uh, the, uh, user analytics, I used to look at them, I haven't looked in a long time. They basically track the climbing season and community size. So as a community grows every year, then the, uh, number of users, uh, grows commensurate. [00:46:01] Sean: Okay. So on that note, number of users, number of size of community now. [00:46:06] Dave: Oh, can you take a [00:46:07] Sean: guess [00:46:07] Dave: at that? It's over a thousand for sure. [00:46:09] Sean: What? [00:46:09] Dave: Yeah. I would have, yeah. [00:46:10] Sean: What? [00:46:11] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Over a thousand, [00:46:13] Sean: there's a thousand. Boulders scrambling around. Yeah. A thousand [00:46:15] Dave: regular users. Yeah. Holy . Yeah, it's kind of cool, actually. I, that's amazing. Yeah. I don't look anymore. Um, but it was cool because I could not just look at Wow, how many, uh, climbers in the community, but I could also look at what are the top 10 most popular problems sort are the top 10 most popular areas. Oh, yeah, yeah, [00:46:33] Sean: yeah, Well, I see there's a thing on like trending problems. I don't know if that's a, I [00:46:36] Dave: I have to, I should. That's not automated. That's, it's not automated. And I haven't up, I haven't updated it in a while. I should actually, I could automate that, and I should, because that'd be kind of, um, kind of cool to be able to keep that up to date. Nick Next project [00:46:48] Sean: for [00:46:48] Dave: you. yeah, I just hadn't, yeah, I hadn't, thought about that in a long time. [00:46:52] Sean: so yeah, I started, I'm, uh, I've recently poked around on your YouTube site and similar to the guidebook, I'm, I'm super impressed with the quality of the stuff on there and how entertaining it is and the thing I stumbled on a few months back. Is your winter projecting stuff up at Owl's, [00:47:12] Dave: Owl's House and West Penn In general. West Pennant. Yeah. [00:47:15] Sean: Yeah. And I was like, the storytelling and the, just the wacky nature of what you're doing was so entertaining and compelling. Yeah. That's, [00:47:24] Dave: that's the vibe that I was going for. Because, because the wacky nature of what's occurring there on film is occurring, whether or not there's a camera on or not, you know, that's, that's just what my sessions look like. I know. And so I thought there might be some, I thought there might be some interest in just seeing how, what things have evolved to, in my, uh, my, my current, my current climbing. Because once I finished the guidebook project and I had finished all of the climbs. in around 2022 I moved into starting to doing some developing. Mm-hmm. But I needed an outlet for that other half. Right. Because I said that doing photos and videos isn't, I don't do that for climbing. I do that because I enjoy that as a separate interest. Cool. And I've always combined it with climbing. Right. So I had the guidebook project that allowed me to, uh, have an outlet for my photography and my video work. But the guidebook project wrapped and then I moved into developing and I was a little bit sad because I didn't have a creative outlet for that mm-hmm. Side of things. So that's where 2024, I thought, well, maybe I could transition from doing the guidebook project to just showing what my average session looks, looks like day. So day to day. So that only started in 2024. Yeah. One year. I've been doing that for about a year. [00:48:44] Sean: You've got quite a bit of content in there though. [00:48:46] Dave: yeah. Already. if it's only been a year. I think I've, I probably probably have close to 50 videos. So one every, yeah, [00:48:56] Sean: one a week. It's, it's one every couple [00:48:58] Dave: weeks. One every couple of weeks. So it might be over a year now, but it's not too much more than that. And, uh, that's amazing, man. Yeah, it's been fun. been different. It's, uh, like I said, sort of reinvent my engagement with, uh, with the activity, with climbing and with the, uh, video work. And I thought there might be some interest in the kinds of wacky things that we get up to. [00:49:22] Sean: Well, we meaning you and your dogs, or, are you and Jen? Are you Ben stuff? Yeah, I have, [00:49:28] Dave: I have a, I have a rotating cast of, uh, guest appearances. So, but the [00:49:31] Sean: winter thing blew me away. Like the, I mean, it was just you, obsessing about that project, which I think became something Sonata or. [00:49:44] Dave: Yes. Is that the [00:49:45] Sean: one? [00:49:45] Dave: So I did some, uh, winter time sessions on hydrogen sonata. Hydrogen sonata. Yeah. But I also did, uh, some longer form content, this year out at, folk clip in West Pennant. Oh, okay. And, uh, that's where I, I did both, uh, I had my, uh, my ice house, [00:50:02] Sean: house is West Pennant, is it? [00:50:04] Dave: Yeah, they're both West Pennant. Okay. In JI sent, uh, I sent Hydrogen Sonata in, uh, January Okay. Of 2025. And then I moved, I moved locations, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's true. I had wintertime content at both, uh, both projects. [00:50:18] Sean: So what I'm remembering, what I watched and really enjoyed was, I mean, you had some, you had some aerial footage to start with, and you, you have this, this little bike, Is it a moped or Yeah, yeah. Some kind of winter eyes. My [00:50:31] Dave: electric, uh, dirt bike. Yeah. [00:50:33] Sean: Electric dirt bike. Your dogs are all geared up in their little jackets and you're, you're riding along. It's freaking cold. It's like minus 15 or something like that. Or, worse with the wind chill. And it's pretty cool. 'cause you're chatting, you're, storytelling the whole way, even though it's like, gotta be the worst conditions possible, right? Like most people would be, I just gotta get and do this thing and keep warm. But you're telling 'em like, this is what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm freezing my ass off right now. And [00:50:58] Dave: I edited a ton from, uh oh, from the Ice Planet haw, because it really was, uh, it really was the Ice Planet of Hth that day. That was kind of fun. Yeah. So I had a, a camera rigged to the front of the dirt bike and a, a microphone and, uh, it worked [00:51:09] Sean: well. [00:51:10] Dave: Yeah. And, uh, I go year round like that. I've, I've been doing that now for many years. So there's a lot of sort of accumulated, uh, beta that goes into making a session like that productive. yeah. [00:51:21] Sean: So tell us about some of the key factors. There's a nice [00:51:25] Dave: ice hut. Yeah. So warming hut, the real question is why, why do you do that? Right. So the reason to, uh, do the wintertime bouldering is because what I found that if I retreat indoors, then when the spring comes, you lose about a month to acclimatizing back to the rock. And that first month that you lose as you're re acclimatizing to the outdoor rock is one of the best months of the whole year. So by climbing year round through the, peak of summer and the depth of winter, it's all about getting one extra month productive month in the shoulder season of the primo conditions. And so, that it's, there's a, um, there's a utilitarian, motivation. Just, just keep going. Just keep going. Yeah. What [00:52:09] Sean: about peaking? Like, have you heard about, training for peak fitness at a certain point in time at that, send that send. season. Is [00:52:18] Dave: that, do you consider that or are you Yeah, absolutely. Peaking at all times? No. Yeah, no, that's different though. That's, that's on the training side of things. Okay. So the way I schedule it is every four to five days I go climbing year round. Yeah. And, and I try to maintain that schedule. So the, the consistency of my climbing schedule never really changes. It's basically always the same in, in that range. And the way that I manage, uh, uh, fitness is a completely separate issue where I will have training seasons, and those would be in the peak of summer or in the depth of winter. My training volume will go way up. Right. So I'm actually performing at a lower level during my climbing days. But that's on purpose because what I'll do is then I'll lighten that load coming into the peak season and focus even to the point where. I will stop training entirely and focus just on climbing. [00:53:06] Sean: And you're training, it's not, you're not train, you're not climbing indoors. I, I think, right? Correct. You're just, you're, you're doing your hand of God stuff and Yeah. Weights and things like that, probably. [00:53:16] Dave: That's right. The reason for that is, we sort of talked about before the recording started, you, get to a level of specialization in any sport where, you know, if there's a, say a 10 or 20% difference between the indoor climbing and the outdoor climbing, well that 10 or 20% is gonna be the difference between being able to do the project or not. 10 or 20% is a massive difference, right? Mm-hmm. If you think about it, when you're sort of at, when you're performing sort of near your capability. And so I need to be doing exactly the thing I plan on be doing come spring season. So that's the reason for, uh, getting out there in the depths of winter, right? And making, making sure what I'm practicing is exactly what I plan to be executing on when the, uh, when the conditions improve. And so in terms of making that. Reasonable. It's never gonna be pleasant. You know, let's just get that outta the way. [00:54:06] Sean: Like [00:54:07] Dave: right now, it's, uh, the goal is to get in and get out and, not have any serious frostbite issues. Yeah. So, yeah. And the key for, uh, making the bouldering doable is just an external source of heat, so that these days it's actually really easy. That's electric gloves. Electric socks, a, heat gun with lithium batteries. So, lith, Small lithium batteries have been a real revolution in being able to climb all winter. And then of course, the final piece of the puzzle is, uh, a propane heater because there's no substitute for burning hydrocarbon for like a lot of concentrated heat. And that propane heater is good all on its own. But the problem is, is that if the wind whips up, you really wanna be outta the wind. But unfortunately, my, as we've discussed, my list of projects has gone very, small. And so it used to be I could pick something south facing outta the wind, perfectly sheltered, and so on and so forth. Yeah. You have no choice in the matter. Now I have no choice anymore. I have to be, this is the one project that I have, that I'm working this year. That's it. That's, uh, my only option. Right. And so that's where the tent comes into play because I can, I can always, it's, you always wanna be tilting the scales in your favor. And, the, the tent just allows you to get out of that wind and put the. Put the heater inside there. And so you have that refuge to Brilliant. Yeah. Come in, warm up. Go out. Take as much pain as you can. And it really is, it's painful. 'cause remember that's, that rock isn't zero degrees, that rock is negative 10, negative 15 degrees. Um, so, you know, you're, you're grabbing something colder than ice. You know, you take a few goes, go back to the tent, warm up and repeat. [00:55:47] Sean: I've, I mean, I remember days, years ago, climbing in weather like that with none of these tricks. Yeah. A and much easier problems for sure. But you couldn't feel your feet at all. Yeah. Like completely numb feet. Yeah. Similarly hands. And it was just. Painful. [00:56:06] Dave: Yeah, true. Truly. And, and you're, you're risking frostbite in those, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, and you do that for a bit when you're younger, and then you'll have a close call, you'll have a toe that doesn't, come back to life for a, a couple of days or a couple of weeks, you know, it'll be numb for a while and you'll be like, okay, flew too close to the sun with that one. [00:56:24] Sean: yeah. No, I, I love, love all those tricks you're using. back to the, like the, training you talked about and not wanting to waste a 10% difference and, and spend that time on a indoor climbing wall, but be focused on your outdoor projects and really kind of dial in there. Is there a danger of being too specialized, like in terms of your body balancing out the muscles that are, you know, having other activities that compliment what you're doing? Do you think about that at all? [00:56:54] Dave: Yeah. Or is that an [00:56:55] Sean: issue? [00:56:56] Dave: It, can, it definitely can be an issue. So climate have experienced this where you will, um, if you go too hard on one particular problem. And then you move on to your next line, you'll, you'll realize just how much project specific adaptation you have. Right? Right. And you may have lost in other areas, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that, that is a concern. It's less of a concern. it depends on the style of climb that you're doing. Because if the climb has it all, then you don't, from a physical standpoint, then you don't have too, much to worry about. So what I'm climbing currently, it really has it all right. It's, uh, very, very physical. so I don't have to worry that I'm missing some aspect of rock climbing that I'm gonna wanna have later for my subsequent project when this one ends. But the other thing that has been revolutionary is the, uh, the grip training now protocol that I'm using is so complete and dialed in that it actually frees me up to. Have that kind of singular focus, you know, when the seasons change or if I send this project and I move on to something else, I know that I'll be equally conditioned for whatever that new challenge is because I have this other separate side of things apart from the project that I can just trust is gonna have my back when I wrap this project someday and move on to something else. [00:58:12] Sean: But we're, we're still talking about all this pulling. Yeah. I'm wondering about the op, the opposing muscles and, shoulder balance, shoulder strength, the push pushing side of things, I guess. [00:58:23] Dave: Yeah. shoulders in terms of, um, climbing itself is a pretty full body activity, so you are gonna get most of what you need, to stay relatively in balance. There are a few areas that, well, I guess Ben and I, did a whole TI [00:58:40] Sean: I'm remembering that we did a whole three hour talk on this topic with more f bombs added though. [00:58:44] Dave: Well, yeah. Yeah. We're, we're keeping a classy here today. Yeah. Very class in the ice box. So, uh, I wonder, uh. But with regards to that, there are some, uh, there is, uh, you know, some supplementary weightlifting that is advisable, usually around shoulders. Yeah. You know, they're sort of the linchpin, but they're also the, it's also the most unstable joint, the human body. And so, and commonly injured. And the injuries, especially as an older athlete, can be career ending, you know, if you get a bad rotator cuff tear. Yeah. If I were to at my stage, I may not ever get back to where I'm at currently. So it is a real concern, but it is something that is mitigated through, like I said, I do the supplementary hand strength training and then basically a shoulder routine. But as for everything else. Whatever you could be imagining triceps or you know, it's on the rock. It's on the rock, yeah. Yeah. You're gonna get, you're gonna get all that you need on the rock. Shoulders are the special case where you you want healthy shoulders and anybody who's, listening to this who's had shoulder injuries or shoulder problems just knows just how, just how challenging that could be to come back from so, [00:59:49] Sean: well, I mean, you're looking at somebody that's had rotator cuff issues. I don't, I've not, I've had strained it, I think. Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah, maybe not torn, but strained that. I just haven't had success or haven't put the time into rehabilitating it well enough and it always kind of flares up. [01:00:07] Dave: That's right. Yeah. It's a, it's a pain in the ass. You do enough recovery so that it, you can, so then you forget about it so that you can sleep at night, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, then it comes back in a, a month or two. yeah. [01:00:16] Sean: Yeah. It's kind of a drag. maybe on the theme of like, I love these little, uh, hacks to, make winter climbing more possible. What about just bouldering in general? I've seen some pretty interesting. pho. There's a photo of you bouldering, I think it was in a gripped article, and it has these little, little shelter things on facing to the side of the rock. Yeah. W what the hell are those, those things. So the, [01:00:47] Dave: uh, [01:00:48] Sean: was it an experiment gone wrong? [01:00:50] Dave: No. That's an experiment on, right. Okay. Okay. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. So, yeah. So the, overarching goal is just to send as many rock climbs, in, in my, uh, in my lifespan as possible. Okay. And so I only have so many primo seasons left, and so I can't wait for a cloudy day like So you're making sunshades. I'm making sunshades, yeah. And so the 3D printer has been really a, a revolution in being able to do those kinds of projects and solve those kinds of problems. I have a whole variety of sunshades. I have articulating sunshades, I have sunshades that come in from the top. I've got, how do they [01:01:24] Sean: stick to the rock? [01:01:25] Dave: Oh, uh, the best. Uh, so if anybody out there is looking to stick sunshades to the rock, the, the best possible tape is the, uh, flex tape. [01:01:33] Sean: So the principle here is you're, you're shading the holds so that it, the temperature is a little bit cooler than would be like, how much cooler is it are we talking about here? [01:01:44] Dave: Well, the difference between, um, doing a, a, a line on a loppy, granite in the sun versus in the shade, you're looking at two, two V grades. Easy or more. Yeah, easily. Easily. Two V grades. [01:01:56] Sean: So the same problem will feel too great. It's harder Yeah. In the sun. Okay. So in, in terms of temperature though, that, that was kind of what I was wondering. Yeah. That part particular [01:02:04] Dave: hold. So that is, like, I have, I have a lot of, uh, gadgets and that's one that I, I would love to have a thermal camera to be able to, you don't have a day. Come on. So I have a moisture meter, right. So that I can measure the surface moisture on the rock. Yeah. And that, that's been great. Yeah. But yeah, a thermal camera would be, uh, would be the next, maybe that's, uh, you know, there you go. the, te the temperature makes a big difference. But there's also the moisture content. So what happens in the sun is that [01:02:27] Sean: Oh, burns it all off. [01:02:28] Dave: Yeah. It burns it all off. Exactly. And so for optimal, uh, for optimal grip on this granite, you really want a really high moisture content. [01:02:36] Sean: Yeah. I heard about this recently too. Whether it was on your site or hearing other people talk about it and tell me how this works. Like, I, I understand like you actually spray water onto the rock, or is it onto your fingers or onto [01:02:50] Dave: both Rock on your fingers. And that, [01:02:52] Sean: which is to me, 'cause I always think like. You don't want slippery holds, right? That's right. [01:02:56] Dave: It is counterintuitive. Like it's crazy. But that's the benefit earlier, like we were talking about getting that massive volume in, right? So once, once you've got seven, eight, 900 cents on this granite Yeah. You, you start, having that, intuitive appreciation for what's quote unquote sticky or attempts. And through that, you know, you're able to notice certain phenomenon. Like when it's lightly raining, the rock gets grippier. Right. Or foggy days, particularly in the shoulder season, have magical amounts of friction. Right. And so [01:03:29] Sean: even though it's sort of like. Almost condensing. Exactly. Well, almost condensing exactly [01:03:34] Dave: what you want. Yeah. So that's really, yeah. That's the optimal. So it, does depend on the, ambient temperature. So the warmer it gets, the less you want moisture on the holds. So if you're climbing in the summer, absolutely. You want the holds to be as dry as possible. So you want to go for those crispy days. Bright blue sky Yeah. Wind from the north dry that, that's the dry summer day that you're after. Right. [01:03:55] Sean: Okay. Okay. [01:03:56] Dave: But for the very best friction that you can have on this granite, you want it to be between, let's say between zero and 10 degrees. And you want the hu, you want the, moisture content on that rock to be just below visible. So by the time you can see it wet sure it's too much. [01:04:13] Sean: Okay. [01:04:14] Dave: But just below that, say 15%, moisture content on the rock, uh, 'cause of, out of about 20%, you're gonna be able to see it. So you [01:04:21] Sean: can, you would spray, spray the holds and you wait and, and then the, like damp amp it off with a towel or something. So what you [01:04:27] Dave: do, you spray the holds and you brush it like you like applying shock. [01:04:30] Sean: Yeah. So [01:04:31] Dave: you work the water in, you work the water in, and then you wait until you just, until you can't see it anymore, then you hop on for your go. Oh, okay. You don't physically towel it off, you let it evaporate. Yeah. Because if you're adding moisture, you are climbing in dry conditions where it just evaporates in front of your eyes. You'll see it just getting dry. Yeah. It's that fast in, uh, in dry conditions. [01:04:52] Sean: And I've heard mention, some advantage that, that actually being salt water versus, [01:04:57] Dave: yeah. [01:04:58] Sean: So is that true, Jen? Swears by salt water? Uh, okay. This is what I heard. Yeah. Yeah. Jen. Jen, uh, [01:05:03] Dave: I don't wanna contradict her because, you know, however, if I have, 20,000 hours of, uh, bowling in on this granite, then she's got 40 easy, or 60, you know, she really, she has, she has a, she has a multiple of my mileage for sure. Locally. Locally, yeah. Yeah. So the jury, let's just say, let's say I'm unconvinced. But I don't wanna contradict Jen because uh, she's got, she's done more research than she has done more research. That's right. Wow. Yeah. So she swears by the salt water. Wow. I find that now. So on your skin, the salt water actually makes sense, right? Because if you put salt water on your skin, it's not going to cause your fingers to, you get that sort of, the water won't absorb into your fingers in the same way to get that like bathtub skin, salt water will prevent that from happening. So I could see, since we put it on both our holds and the rock, I could see the advantage to having, at least a neutral sodium content for the water that you put on your fingers. But as to whether or not that really makes a difference, I haven't seen it yet, but that's not, uh, yeah, it might, the jury's out might just mean I'm not trying hard enough. That's what Gem would say. Yeah, [01:06:10] Sean: I've heard her say that a lot. Um, and is this con, is this like a global. Thing like boulders everywhere know this. No, this is [01:06:18] Dave: not widely known. I will say from my YouTube comments, there are quite a few people who pipe up and say, oh yeah, you know, we've, we've locally, we've noticed this exact same phenomenon. But, so there are people out there who sort of appreciate it. But I will say that by and large, when you're out at the boulders, assuming there were other people out there, which in my case would be a pretty rare event, but what if there were, and you start spraying water, you're gonna get some weird looks. [01:06:41] Sean: Got that chance to hang with some pros before. And they were using, um, rubbing alcohol, I think Yeah. To like totally clean off their hands of oils, presumably. Yeah. So that's before a session to use that something you do as well. [01:06:55] Dave: Yeah, uh, that's, it's pretty common to do, uh. Just a dose of liquid chalk, which is, uh, always based, alcohol based at the start of your session. I started to use that recently. So you, yeah, so you get a, you degrease the skin, which, rubbing alcohol is good for, and you get a good base of chalk and [01:07:12] Sean: it [01:07:12] Dave: usually just once per session, because if you keep doing that, it'll dry out your, it'll dry out your skin and it won't, uh, it won't feel great. But yeah, it's pretty commonly, pretty commonly done. [01:07:21] Sean: Any other, uh, tips? Oh boy. Hacks, bouldering hacks. [01:07:25] Dave: Uh, or maybe [01:07:26] Sean: you don't wanna divulge all of your secrets, I dunno. Yeah, that's right. This is, uh, I, this is my [01:07:29] Dave: 2026, uh, YouTube, uh, calendar. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. [01:07:33] Sean: Well nobody's gonna listen to this anyway, so you're fine. In terms of training, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but do you wanna expand a bit more on your, the hand of God and, and what that's all about? From what I can tell, you've replaced any other form of traditional squeezy training, things with your own device. Yeah. That you've created and now you're, you're selling them, I believe. [01:07:57] Dave: Yeah. And that's, um, that's an interesting, uh, I, not interesting, like it'd be super interesting as a story, but it's just an interesting place that I've ended up because I have, uh, I've never had any desire to, um, uh, cell training devices. Right? Yeah. Uh, what happened is, is that I was very unsatisfied with what was currently available just because they don't make any sense, right? Like the, from an exercise physiology standpoint, from an anatomy and physiology point of view, these current state of the art in rock climbing training would be, I don't know. It feels like, it feels like the state of physics or something in, you know, the 17 hundreds. Like it's that bad. Yeah. It's that bad. Yeah. It's got a ways to go, right? If you just look at what the goal you're trying to accomplish is, and then what are the principles around that goal? Then what are the steps you're taking to accomplish that? It doesn't make any sense the, way that it's currently done. So I was pretty unsatisfied with this, with that situation. [01:09:04] Sean: Can we just pause there? Yeah. 'cause I'm kind of an ous on, on training in general, but are we talking about the, whole fingerboard? Yeah, [01:09:10] Dave: exactly. Protocol protocols. Is that specifically what you're thinking of the protocol, the fingerboard themselves? Yeah. Everything about it. Okay. Doesn't, yeah, it, doesn't really comport with, that's why I haven't [01:09:19] Sean: been doing it. [01:09:20] Dave: Well, you know what? There's some truth to that, right? So, I wouldn't fingerboard either. And the reason is, is because it was unsatisfactory. Now, I have a whole series of videos explaining the, uh, nuances here. So I'm trying Sure. I'm just covering it in broad, high level. Yeah. I'm just close notes. Close notes. I'm, I'm keeping it high level here. If the goal is to strengthen particular muscles in your forearm to the maximum extent possible so that they are able to perform in the, uh, context of rock climbing, then. Fingerboards are the wrong tool, and the current training protocols is the wrong dose. So you've got the wrong tool and then you've got the wrong dose. Because what we're really trying to do is just you want to give muscles in your forearm relevant to rock climbing a specific dose of stimulus. You wanna recover from that and improve, and you want to iterate that cycle forever. You can never get, you can never get too much grip in rock climbing like that. That's not a problem that you can have. Yeah. Damnit, I've got too much grip. Yeah. If only my fingers weren't so strong and so I was just unsatisfied with what was available. I set to work, basically, I am married to a hand surgeon, so, ah, so that's the secret weapon, right? So, so we discuss the principles of functional hand anatomy for hours and hours and hours, and then I would take, those discussions and the understanding that I gain. Refine the tools that I was using, and then I'd iterate on this process over years and years. And the end result is basically the product of that evolutionary process that looks radically different from what people are used to. I made a YouTube video on a whim just, and where I showed basically what I do, what my, some, of the principles that I use to, uh, when it comes to finger training, people got, people saw the device and I, I really tried to downplay it because I was really trying not to sell grippers. Let me reiterate, I was trying hard not to sell grippers. [01:11:22] Sean: You're just saying, this is what I do, this is [01:11:23] Dave: what I do, and like how I kind of had to show what I was using if in order for that to, um, video, for the video to make sense, right? I showed it on camera and then the rest is history. Basically. People weren't having it. I got a bunch of emails and like, some, hate, hate mail. No, not hate bails. They weren't having me not selling it. No, it was the opposite. No, it was opposite. They were, they were [01:11:43] Sean: buying the Kool-Aid that you were selling, or the idea they were [01:11:46] Dave: buying the Kool-Aid. That I was trying hard not to sell. Right, Yeah. So then a climber from, uh, Denmark reaches out and it's like, no, we ha this, has to become available. this, so he pitched me on starting a business to, to sell these things, and I have a hard time saying no. When [01:12:03] Sean: A good idea comes along. [01:12:04] Dave: Well, not, no, it's not even that any idea. No. It's like, well, why am I, you know, I'm, I'm here today, uh, doing this podcast because you're, doing stuff and I really appreciate that. Anybody who's out, anybody who's gonna do stuff, I wanna support that. Right. Because as somebody who does stuff, appreciate it. Yeah. As somebody who does stuff, I just, when other people are going for it, I, really appreciate that. So the, the guy from Denmark, he, he was really psyched to get a business going and, and try to bring this, uh, idea to, fruition. And so I didn't want to, but I felt an so, Philip, sorry if you're listening, but it's true. I, uh, I, I really didn't want to, but, but I, at the same time, I'm like, well, I'll support. Philip, what he wants to do here. I I'll support him in what he wants to do. Because I, he's, he's launching. Yeah. What you started and, taking to another level or, yeah, I just, I just like the psych and the motivation and I, I couldn't say no, basically. And [01:12:57] Sean: is he the guy that created the app that goes along with that, or is that No, that's [01:13:00] Dave: a different, that's a different fellow that I Okay. The same story, right. I've heard great things about that too. Yeah. The same story. So maybe we'll get there, but, but it, it happened in the exact same fashion where somebody reaches out, they're a real doer. I'm like, okay, well I'll team up, right? Like, I'll do my part, I'll, I'll help you push it forward. Like, I'm not phoning it in like, uh, you know, I'm, doing my part, uh, to make it happen. But when somebody else has that drive and motivation, I admire that. And so I feel like I feel that obligation and yeah. So that's, that's basically how I ended up. [01:13:30] Sean: Are you happy with it now? Like you, you, you sounded, uh, trepidatious about getting it started, but are you glad this is got to a place where it is [01:13:38] Dave: just like everything, uh, the journey has been, uh, super, super interesting. Yeah, there's been lots and lots of positive aspects, about just going through the process. 'cause it's a 'cause, learning and, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. See, 'cause my other hobby is just problem solving, just solving puzzles, right? And like, boy, there's been some good puzzles that needed solving. So the puzzle solving aspect of it has been fantastic. I've had so many, uh, really, really cool, uh, personal correspondence with, uh, with early customers, people reaching out, Yeah. Just the short, the stories they're sharing. [01:14:12] Sean: Are there pros using that tool [01:14:14] Dave: yet? not, not to my knowledge. yeah, people ask that question regularly. They're not really my target demographic. Because for a professional climber, you are already at the top of the game. So there's a huge switch in cost for them. To like whatever they're doing to prep reclining. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Right. It's [01:14:31] Sean: working [01:14:31] Dave: for them. it's clearly working. 'cause they're the best. Yeah. Yeah. Does that mean it, does that mean that what they're doing is the best? No, that's a common, logical fallacy people have. Right. They look at the pros and they say, I should do what they're doing 'cause they're the best. And it's like, well, [01:14:42] Sean: yeah. [01:14:43] Dave: Interesting. Yeah. That, that, that logic is not sound. But that said, if you are a pro and you are the best, then uh, there's a significant switch in cost. [01:14:53] Sean: sure. And there may be some positive gains beyond that, or in fact there likely would be if that switch, switch over [01:14:59] Dave: there likely would be. Yeah. So I think it would work for them, but I also see why they're not, pros are not gonna be early adopters to a new technology. They never will be. Right. And so what you're gonna see is that what you'll more likely see is the, um, the striving pros. Like the lower Yes. The right. [01:15:15] Sean: It's an interesting cohort. Yeah. That, yeah. Those will be the guys [01:15:18] Dave: looking for an edge. And that's where you'll see, uh, that's where you'll see the wi more willingness to, uh, adopt something new. [01:15:23] Sean: Yeah. Um, there seems to be. A lot of international interest in this product. It's full, [01:15:29] Dave: it's fully global. Yeah. [01:15:31] Sean: where's the, where is most of your interest coming from? [01:15:33] Dave: There is no, most, it's crazy. It's fully global. The, the, uh, interest is fully geographically distributed. Every continent on earth except Antarctica. [01:15:43] Sean: There's some Iceland, uh, Icelandic climbers. [01:15:45] Dave: I don't know if we've, I could, I'd have to check, uh, whether we've shipped to Iceland. That's my, uh, business partner. He does the, uh, shipping for the rest of the world. I just do US and Canada. [01:15:53] Sean: Okay. [01:15:54] Dave: And, uh, you're a busy dude, but truly, truly, uh, I couldn't tell you. So like America, obviously as a giant, population south of our border, they are the majority of the customers that I'm shipping to here out of North America. [01:16:10] Sean: How many, um, how many bits of product have you distributed? And I think you've got a couple different sizes of the, the hand of God and the [01:16:21] Dave: Yeah. We've shipped out something like, uh, four or 500 individual pairs of grippers pairs. Okay. [01:16:26] Sean: Pairs of grippers. Yeah. Nice. [01:16:28] Dave: And, um, most people are buying, uh, buying both. [01:16:31] Sean: Really? [01:16:31] Dave: Yeah. It's been great. And they are synergistic. Right. So it gets back to that discussion we were having earlier about the difference between Ghislain and, Nick Sagar in terms of their dominant finger flexor, and how they both had a significant imbalance and they complimented one another. They had each other's opposite strength. with these hand grippers there specifically designed to, even that out and allow you to develop fully in, in both major styles of climbing. So, cool. Yeah. And so it is cool that people through, just through watching a YouTube video, have, um, been able to recognize that like, it's cool that the customers have been able to watch the video, hear the message, and, uh, and that resonates to the point that they, have really been. adopting both. Yeah. Been buying both grippers. Absolutely. And great feedback. Uh, and you know, we've had a lot of people who've bought one gripper to start and they're coming back for the second gripper. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool to see. Yeah, man, I might [01:17:27] Sean: have to give [01:17:27] Dave: that a go. Yeah, Well, you were just saying though, that you're allergic to training. Was it? [01:17:33] Sean: Well, this just sounds like more fun than, oh, no, it's, it's painful too, isn't it? It's painful and horrible. Yeah, it's, oh, it's, it's, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's [01:17:38] Dave: worse actually. Oh, God. Like a lot worse. Yeah. There was a discussion on the, uh, discord as to whether or not you could lose consciousness during one of these training sessions. Yeah. Like, it was a serious discussion. [01:17:49] Sean: and what's crazy is, so these videos I've been watching of yours, where you're, you're at with Jen lately, it seems like you guys have been making a few exploration videos and projecting videos. Yeah. [01:17:59] Dave: We teamed up to, uh, develop, uh, the Sky Hook Boulder this summer. So. Awesome. [01:18:02] Sean: Yeah. And then it seems like at the end of your sessions, most of them, maybe all of them. Al it's approaching darkness. And you're still committed to doing a training session with your, your grippers. Oh yeah. [01:18:13] Dave: Post session training is the best. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's the best warmed up. You're fully warmed up. Like your psych is high. 'cause you're right there at the Boulder, right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's nothing like, uh, going into the pain cave, which is what people call the, uh, the, using these grippers, but where you can still see the reason you're doing it though, right? Because when you're doing it at home in your apartment, like it's kind of abstract. Mm. Why am I doing this? Yeah. It's disconnected from the goal, right? But when you're there and you're looking at the project that you want to get done this season, dude, if the motivations, we could [01:18:39] Sean: be in the ice box super stoked about the, yellow, yellow hole problem here. Maybe ace making faces at [01:18:49] Dave: my [01:18:50] Sean: wall because the, holes are way too big for him. I think [01:18:53] Dave: so. You know how many locals have bought grippers? Not very many. The vast majority are all over the world. Yeah. It's all spread out. [01:19:00] Sean: Coming back to local. What's your perception of what the current scene is like here in Nova Scotia right now? You mentioned we, uh, we said there was like a thousand pebble wrestlers running around out there. Yeah. That's somewhere these days. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. [01:19:15] Dave: Yeah. [01:19:15] Sean: Which is mind blowing actually. Uh, in terms of hard bouldering, like where, where, where are people at? Where, I don't know what you call, what do you call hard bouldering? When does that start? V 10, [01:19:29] Dave: V 11, and hard bouldering. There's a big, uh, there's a big jump. 10 is the transitional point, right. Nine is where it's, you know, hardish. it's not just that we were talking about natural plateaus, like the point that you, the point that you kind of get to, you know, with just serious dedication to getting out there and getting on rock. My observation over the years has been, that's about V nine in Nova Scotia. That's where I got to personally, and that that still seems to hold to this day. So you'll see the Common Rock climbs in that zone, get a lot of traffic. Okay. Those will be the, uh, you know, I could start, I could start naming them, but like cleos, like double crossed, resurrection skills inventory, the, uh, these are the climbs that, that get all the traffic. Now, everything I just mentioned, there is a Nick Sagar first ascent, you see? [01:20:18] Sean: Yes. But you, you, you've probably graded them as they should be, is that right? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. They're, [01:20:24] Dave: yeah. Cool. But, I guess the community progresses exactly the same way that I progressed 10, 10, 15 years ago when I was coming up. It still looks like that. Or at least that's my observation. [01:20:36] Sean: There's just more people doing it. Exactly. Yeah. So, [01:20:38] Dave: at any given level, and they're all getting to a similar, they're following the same progression then? Yeah. Even the same problems. So you can look at Sendage, it's the same, it's the same ones that I did Yeah. Right when I was coming up are still the most popular and most, most sought after cool lines. Yeah. [01:20:53] Sean: Okay. So in terms of hard bouldering, then what's, [01:20:56] Dave: yeah, well, so then what does it look like? So then you start hitting the tens, and that's a transitional zone where it starts, uh, the difficulty starts ramping up. And then there's a real transitional point at that, V 11 level where the, nuance and the hold size is ra the nuance is ratcheted way up and hold size is ratcheted way down. [01:21:16] Sean: Mm. [01:21:17] Dave: And so it seems to be where the, where this, there seems to be, uh, a big jump there where it gets a lot harder. And then it's only it and it only gets worse from there. Right? So you start getting in, then you start getting into even the, the, next, uh, tier above that. And you're now looking at very, really, very difficult, rock climbs. [01:21:37] Sean: And these, these rock climbs you're talking about because of the nuance you're speaking of probably requires a lot of time and dedication to Yeah. Unlock those things. That's right. Because they're not an obvious grab the Exactly. Grab the, the crimp [01:21:52] Dave: That's right. And pull. Yeah. So you have to be strong to do them, but you have to have mileage as well. and, that's where the, you, you, you, it's much more of a commitment at that level because you need to be getting out and getting them on rock mileage. Uh, it, the gym, the, skill that you're getting from the gym is not translating to the same extent anymore. [01:22:14] Sean: And would you say these problems in this area at five 11 and up, or sorry, five 11 V 11? [01:22:21] Dave: Yeah. [01:22:23] Sean: Difficult to flash compared to the elevens elsewhere in the world, would you say? Almost impossible. There are. [01:22:29] Dave: Yeah. I, yeah. Given [01:22:31] Sean: that nuance and [01:22:32] Dave: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Granite is, granite is extremely hard to flash. And this is not a theoretical consideration. My buddy Seb, who we mentioned earlier, world's strongest hands, right? Yeah. he can flash that level in other climbing areas, no problem. It would be inconceivable, for sub to flash V 11 in Nova Scotia. and I, I think there we have lines that I, I don't think any prof like professionals are now flashing, you know, all the way up to the highest echelons of bouldering. But we have lowly, v twelves and thirteens that I think it's impossible for anybody to flash. Ooh, the gauntlet has been thrown, the gauntlet has been thrown down. But, but I, I do believe that to be true. [01:23:14] Sean: And, uh, speaking back to your, climbing evolution, you've, done all these previous problems. You're putting up your own. First ascent and you're pushing the bar locally up to what sort of V 12, maybe even V 13? Is that where [01:23:30] Dave: Yeah, that's you're operating at right now? That's, that the projects that I'm currently, uh, operating on at the moment would be, uh, V 13 for sure. [01:23:38] Sean: Wow. And how does that compare to what else is going on in Canada right now? [01:23:44] Dave: Do you know? Oh goodness. I have no idea. Right. Okay. Yeah, I am completely disconnected. Uh, I would, I would imagine just like everywhere else in the world, the grades are being pushed into just astronomically high values. Now we could talk about that. That's a, you know, if you want to get spicy here, [01:23:59] Sean: oh, dear. [01:24:00] Dave: Yeah. Let me [01:24:01] Sean: get some water. [01:24:01] Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I guess, but, so, you know, to, to bring that home, what happens is, is that at a certain point, hard is hard. It's hard for everyone. [01:24:12] Sean: Yeah. And I thought, I had the impression that you weren't actually grading things for a while. [01:24:18] Dave: Not anymore, no. Is that true? I've, I, I, I have since stopped here. [01:24:23] Sean: And so hydrogen sonata. So I think you were proposing grades of B12, B 13, or maybe that was just in response of everybody asking. [01:24:30] Dave: Yeah, that was in response. Uh, Ben suggested that. Okay. He, uh, came here, this spring and, uh, put a number of sessions in on that climb. And remember Ben did the first ascent of the stand to start, which is called Winter of Our Discontent. Oh, [01:24:44] Sean: okay. Okay. [01:24:45] Dave: So he has a good sense for that line, right? Yeah. as the, uh, person who did the this, the highest start. Yeah. And then now he's worked the low start, Ben suggested that I graded at that level, and so I just acquiesced Nice. and the reason is, is because there was a time when I was climbing everything and I had huge amounts of comparative volume on all the different climbs, but it's been years now. I haven't climbed, I haven't climbed somebody else's climb. So it's all just hard now. It just all just feels hard. And like, even if it's not that hard, even if I think it's a, a intermediate level climb, say [01:25:20] Sean: yeah. [01:25:21] Dave: That feels hard too. It's hard to you. Well, yeah. It feels hard. I spend fewer sessions. So like they, they all feel about the same when you send Right. Even the hardest lines that I've ever done feel about this, they, they feel interesting. Yeah. They feel the same as an intermediate line because you send when you're ready to send, and so the effort on that sendo is often very similar. You're just so much more dialed in at the, higher grade. But it doesn't, if you ask me how hard, the hardest thing I've ever done, well it feels no different than a summer day on Dover doing a moderate. Interesting. Yeah. and it really does have that, that's a cool concept. So it is, it does become somewhat theoretical and that's where you do need to be getting that volume all the time. The comparative volume to, if you're [01:26:05] Sean: interested in putting numbers to race, if you're interested in accurately [01:26:08] Dave: putting numbers on things. And so the, you know, if you're a professional rock climber, then you are doing that comparative volume. That's the game. You travel the world and you do other people's climbs, then you do your own climbs then. That that's the game they play. Yeah, I've sort of run out of comparative volume here, and I spent all of my time working the same half a dozen lines, so I'm losing, sight. [01:26:30] Sean: Who, who else is in that cohort of people locally that are working at that level? Or are there any There's no, yeah, there's no cohort. Jen's pulling some pretty hard Yeah. We climb together for sure. Boulder. Yeah. No, Jen. Jen is, probably one of the strongest female boulders we have here. Yeah. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly, yeah. Undoubtedly. [01:26:50] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. [01:26:51] Sean: So how many people are climbing hard boulders, say V 11 and up around here? Do you even know? Would you guess that? Like 20 10, 6 0 [01:27:01] Dave: 2. [01:27:03] Sean: Oh really? [01:27:04] Dave: Yeah. [01:27:05] Sean: Oh yeah. Huh. [01:27:08] Dave: But that's, it's always been a vanguard, right? Like we started at the beginning, And, you know, someday when I hang up the chalk bag, it'll be somebody else. Prob probably, you know, [01:27:19] Sean: pushing a little bit further, whatever. Yeah. [01:27:21] Dave: Repeating my lines and then pushing the, into the next, uh, tier of difficulty. Wow. [01:27:25] Sean: Yeah, I mean, there seems to be a lot of strong climbers out there from my, vantage point. But maybe, like you were saying earlier, they're kind of like, they're at those, they're pushing into, into hard climbing. That's right. They're not necessary. They're, they're, yeah, they're breaking into that zone. That's my impression. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:27:43] Dave: Yeah. There's, like I said, there's a few who are sort of re breaching that, that, uh, that, that hard barrier at the V 11 era, zone, but it's, uh, yeah. [01:27:55] Sean: So cool. what, inspires you these days? And I feel like historically you were probably motivated by, Ben Smith's achievements and Zig and perhaps others. Is there. Inspiration that you're getting from other climbers anywhere, or is that not even relevant? It's interesting. [01:28:17] Dave: Yeah. Uh, I agree with the framing. Nick and Zig, the two of them together, you know, really were, instrumental, like, you know, re repeating their legacy and, documenting that. That was super inspiring. That was my North star Cool. For many years. Right. And, then, yeah, and then I, when I transitioned into starting the development phase, obviously Ben and Ben was a big inspiration as well and, uh, the lines that he did. and then, it's, I did say at the end of my video in a hydrogen sonata, it, like that line felt like the end of a era. Like that's how I ended that video. Right. I kind of faded to black with, those words because that's what it felt like. Um, where the, I think looking back, there'll be a distinct line between, that'll be the dividing line between what I'm doing now and what I was doing up until now and what I'm doing now. Like I said, I've, at every stage, I've kind of had to change the game, always forward, never back. You have to reinvent the, you have to reinvent my engagement with the sport to hold the interest, you know, to, to keep that obsession going, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh, and go looking forward, like what inspires me now? Yeah. It's, I think I've. I've evol, I, I, I've, I've, I've, I've, like, evolved into a, a new species. I basically, you know what, you know what it is? It's gem. You know what I'm gonna say? It's gem. Now. I say if you stick with the sport long enough, all roads lead to evolving into just becoming gem. [01:30:00] Sean: Do you want me to explain that? Yes, please. I think I have an idea, but I couldn't articulate what that is. Knowing, knowing Jen a little bit as I do. [01:30:09] Dave: Yeah. [01:30:11] Sean: I, I wanna say zen. [01:30:12] Dave: There's some zen This she climbs. just for climbing sake. Yeah. that's it. what are you gonna do today, Jen? go climbing. What else is there? Yeah. Like, yeah. So simple. Yeah. Well, what, what line are you gonna do? I don't know all of them. Any of them. where are you going? nice. It's a different, uh, Jen has spent. well, it's the [01:30:36] Sean: journey, not the destination. True. Like truly and, [01:30:40] Dave: and like, that is trite to say, and it's almo, but, but like, in such an authentic sense, she embodies that. Like it doesn't, it really is just about getting it there in touch and rock, you know? And, and it kind of has to, it kind of has to be that way, you know, for the long term because, you know, I'm only gonna, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna send a line now, what? Once every couple years now. So then what am I doing in the, what am I doing in the interim? It can't be, it, it can no longer be goal orientated. Good for you. Like, like, I ha sure I have a goal, right? Like, just like Jen does, she has a goal. She's, someday she'll send the climb that she's working currently maybe. But that is truly not what it's about. And uh, and it was a long journey to kinda get to this point. [01:31:23] Sean: This is awesome, man. This feels like you've really come to a deeper understanding of [01:31:27] Dave: it. Well, truly because I started with an extreme goal orientated nature and like mid maxed that. To the greatest extent I possibly could, you know, to the point of, you know, I, I I couldn't climb my climbs anymore, so I had to invent new hand grippers. Right. I had, you know, like, what am I gonna do? I have to, in order to push forward, I have to blaze a, new trail. But the trail feels like, I've kind of like the trail has now just opened, it's just opened up into, yeah. Into [01:31:56] Sean: liberating. This is liberation. Yeah, it's true. [01:31:58] Dave: And that's what it felt like. It felt like sending hydrogen sonata felt like the end of that goal orientated phase of climbing, and now it is. Yeah. I'm just, gripping, just, uh, enjoying the ride. Yeah. Because that's, you know, and it, it was a long journey to get to that point because, I could have told myself I was there before. You know what I mean? Like, because, because that's aspirational, right? Like, everybody would like to be just there for the ride. Like everybody says it's about the journey, not the destination. But is it, though, but it, [01:32:27] Sean: it, it's good to have that aspirational goal to put you on that journey. Well, for [01:32:31] Dave: sure. That, exactly. That's what I mean. If you gotta [01:32:34] Sean: get on the train to somewhere, yeah. [01:32:35] Dave: It felt aspirational. But now that's kind of the thing. Like you ask, well, do I grade anymore? And it's like, [01:32:41] Sean: there's no [01:32:41] Dave: point. It's like almost, there's no point. The point is for those who come after me, but like, I'll just wait for the person who sends it second and I'll, I'll chat with them and like, you know, I'll, share my thoughts, and help them in their understanding. But for me personally, yeah, I don't know. [01:32:56] Sean: What motivates you to keep climbing after all these years? [01:33:00] Dave: You just, you've reached that point where, you know, it just, I'm a climber now. There's nothing else for it. it's just part of me. There's nothing else. I, I can't stop. [01:33:12] Sean: this has been a real treat, Dave. Thanks for, thanks for taking the time and coming out here. And really to meet you despite knowing, knowing about each other for decades now. I was excited to have this conversation and it's, uh, it's really lived up to my expectations, so. Anyways. This has been great. Thank you so much. [01:33:31] Dave: Well, thanks for having me. [01:33:34] Sean: Thanks again, Dave. That was awesome. I want to give a huge shout out to climb Nova Scotia for coming on board to sponsor the podcast as well as East Day Climbing seven Bay Bouldering and Unfiltered Brewing. Stay tuned for more episodes. You can find out more@iceboxsessions.ca. I'll catch you later. [01:34:14] Dave: I do tend to get obsessed with things. [01:34:16] Sean: Really? [01:34:16] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. You don't do crack. Only thing I don't do .