_______________________________________________________________________ Ep5_Dave Quinn Transcript [00:00:00] Dave: You can never get too much grip in rock climbing. that's not a problem that you can have. Dammit. I've got too much grip. Yeah. If only my fingers weren't so strong. I've, I've like evolved into a, a new species. I can't stop, I can never stop, but, uh, at least I don't, uh, wear pajamas in public anymore. [00:00:19] Sean: Hey folks, welcome to another icebox session. My name is Sean Cassidy and we are in conversation with Nova Scotia Rock Climbers. Today's guest to kick off the 2026 season is the one and only Dave Quinn. Dave is probably Nova Scotia's most dedicated and accomplished Boulders currently projecting in the V 13 range. He's kind of a mystery. You'll never see him in a gym. He climbs exclusively outside all year round and often at night. If you don't recognize his name, you will probably know him as the mastermind behind Mo Beta, a free online bouldering guide that he started developing in 2011. In this conversation, we get into some deep discussions about braiding style. And his YouTube channel that has over 25,000 followers. We also talk about his revolutionary new torture, I mean, finger training device that he designed and is selling internationally. I hope you enjoy this fascinating conversation. I'm really excited to talk to you. We don't really know each other. I think we maybe had a brief conversation once, [00:01:20] Dave: do you think? I feel like in the very early days, perhaps, but I would've been, that would've been 20 years ago. Okay. And I would've, I would've been a very beginner. [00:01:28] Sean: So you've been climbing 20 years and you started at ground zero. Is that the, is that the deal [00:01:32] Dave: basically? Yeah. Yeah, There was a gap in there. And I've been seriously climbing for 15, so that was like a five year intro period. and it would've been during that. [00:01:42] Sean: I remember seeing you and you'd be off on your own doing stuff. You seemed kind of like a lone wolf. Yeah. climbing in your, uh, scrubs or, or pajamas, pajama, yeah. I used, [00:01:51] Dave: yeah. Yeah. Ben, uh, Ben called me Pajama pants. Quinn. Yeah. Okay. Well, in the ear, in the earliest phase. Yeah. [00:01:57] Sean: Yeah. Therien and I were chatting, recently and was like, we, we would refer to you as pajama Dave. [00:02:03] Dave: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was, uh, still living at home and was a, just, um, wearing pajamas out in public is, you know, a fa a phase, let's put it that way. Yeah. [00:02:14] Sean: But also, uh, Sean also said that, you know, he has a lot of respect for you, and always did, because you were doing your own thing. You don't, you didn't give a about Prana or Gucci or whatever. Yeah. Hip, hip climbers were wearing, you were wearing your pajamas, and that's just how it was. [00:02:34] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. There was some definitely an element of, of that, wasn't conforming to, uh, [00:02:40] Sean: I don't think you do now either. No, of course not. Like you do, you [00:02:42] Dave: do your [00:02:42] Sean: own thing, right? Yeah. [00:02:43] Dave: Yeah. But, uh, at least I don't, uh, wear pajamas in public anymore. [00:02:46] Sean: So you, your wife probably likes that. [00:02:48] Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:02:49] Sean: So how did you get pulled in? What drew you to climbing in the first place? Like 20 years ago? So, 2005 ish? [00:02:56] Dave: Yeah, so it would've been in undergrad, second or third year of university. And I started, I, think the very first time I went would've been, university intermurals. I wasn't really interested all that much at that phase, you know, it was, it took me a [00:03:12] Sean: diversion. [00:03:12] Dave: It was a diversion, yeah, exactly. A way to get some fitness in. And I was only dabbling in climbing. And that it's, it remained that way for those. Those first, um, several years. Okay. And that's when I would've first been at the Rock Court, or sorry, not the Rock court, at ground zero. Ground zero, [00:03:28] Sean: yeah. But it seemed like, 'cause I [00:03:28] Dave: lived in Dartmouth at the time, I was living at home. [00:03:31] Sean: Super [00:03:31] Dave: convenient. it was more, it was closer to home. [00:03:33] Sean: Yeah. So you say you're just sort of dabbling in those first five years. When did you start getting serious about it and how did you kind of level up your game? [00:03:41] Dave: That's right. Yeah. So I went away to, uh, medical school and basically through a series of, uh, injuries, and just other obligations drifted away and stopped climbing completely during that time. It w it was when I returned back to the Maritimes. So I went to medical school in Calgary. I got a series of injuries that, um, are common in, um, ear, earlier stage climbers, and the, the kind of usual injuries that, uh, actually a lot of the people who are buying grippers now are, uh, are, having I, well, [00:04:10] Sean: I've had 'em all. I think yeah, we've all had 'em all. Yeah, you got, [00:04:13] Dave: you gotta go through that phase, right? You gotta have all your injuries and then you'll learn how to, manage them and, and climb through them and uh, and rehab them. But anyway, um, I had other things going on and so I drifted away, completely moved home to begin medical residency and I thought, you know, maybe I should, uh, maybe I should pick up climbing again. 'cause I still had a crash pad in my apartment from the before times. And [00:04:36] Sean: you weren't [00:04:36] Dave: injured. [00:04:37] Sean: you'd [00:04:37] Dave: healed up point. Exactly. I healed up 'cause I'd been not climbing for two years and, uh, started climbing regularly, exclusively outdoors. And that was the thing I said, I'm gonna climb outdoors because I got injured in the gym. So maybe I'll try, maybe I'll get a dog. and, and just become an exclusive outdoor climber because maybe the injury potential will be less than on the, gym. That is true. The, uh, nature of the incu holds and pockets and these kind of things that you dynamic movement at a lower level of rock climbing, you don't get the same kind of dynamic movement on granite at a low level here because, the rock doesn't give you the holds for that. And so it does kind of ease you into a more fingertip based climbing rather than a, you know, you're not grabbing a jug, having a foot slip and then shock loading your, exactly your novice tendons and pulleys. And so I think it actually did work out. And, uh, yeah, through that second reintroduction into climbing, I, met Ben at the Rock court 'cause now I was back at Dow Li living in Halifax, and we were out climbing one day. And he said, you know, it'd be cool as if we filmed all the climbs in Nova Scotia and put them on the internet. This is, [00:05:47] Sean: this is, uh, Ben Smith we're talking about. Yeah. Smithville and Gimme, gimme a year. [00:05:51] Dave: We're in 2011 At this time, I'd been back in Halifax for two years, climbing exclusively outdoors and sort of reengaging with, some of my peers in the community. I met Ben at the rock court and we're, we're climbing together a night session, outside night session or at the laundromat. I have a video camera at the time, which, um, was very rudimentary. This is before iPhone. This is, uh, before really YouTube was very, uh, nascent. Totally. You know, there wasn't a lot of, there wasn't. It was social media. Again, same thing. Nascent and, Ben we're, climbing at the laundromat and I'm playing with my video camera more than anything, just for. Something to do. I've always been interested in photography and videography as completely aside from rock climbing. Ben said, you know, maybe we should film all of the, all of the, it'd be cool if there was a database where we could, we could film all of the climbs and, have them recorded and have the, beta online. And, uh, you know, we could do a website with, with video and, and photos and, and, GPS and all of these things. And, um, [00:06:58] Sean: now what at, like, Zig had something going on. I forget it. It was like he had Zig TV and he was cataloging roots online. [00:07:09] Dave: Yeah. So Zig had did the original guidebook, so the paper guidebook, Halifax Bouldering would, it's up behind you somewhere. That's right, yeah. Which was what everybody was using the authoritative resource for bouldering. But it was getting a little bit older at that time, and I thought it would be cool to have a digital version of that. And so I was very much inspired by what had Zig had done, but thought that, photo and video and GPS and that this would be the way forward, which of course nowadays is becoming the standard for all climbing areas with these, uh, large climbing databases and commercialized offerings such as, uh, Kaya or the Craig and so on. The digital guidebook space is in 2025, is now. It's, going to become the, it's gonna become the standard. But we're, in 2011 and Ben thought, you know, it'll be cool as if, you know, we're basically envisioning cutting edge. we're envisioning what is now, 14 years later become, becoming the, uh, the standard for all climbing areas. But we were sitting out there and I'm filming a video and Ben thought, yeah, this would be a great idea. And so that I, set to work basically in 2011, 14 years. 14 years, yeah. With a goal of climbing and documenting everything that was in Zigs original guidebook. So that, was my original motivation and goal was to, yeah. Was to get, uh, on video every single climb in Halifax bouldering. [00:08:35] Sean: Which, the, um, the fallout from that, or the, the benefit documentation for everybody else, but also you experience all those problems and probably help advance your, like you steadily. Ticked off everything. [00:08:48] Dave: Yeah. Well, probably. Right. So That's right. You got [00:08:50] Sean: better through that process Alone [00:08:52] Dave: in incredible. you know, it's funny because the time at, in 2011 when I set my sights on this goal of documenting all of Nova Scotia bouldering, sort of established in Inland's guidebook, I didn't have the capability to do even a third of it. Right. I was not at the start. Yeah. At the start, I was not climbing at a level where it was even feasible. [00:09:15] Sean: Yeah. What, kind of level would you be at at that time? Do you remember? [00:09:18] Dave: V four V five, but that's not, uh, all v fours and v fives, you know, as everybody knows, I'm, I'm a V four. That's right. There's a big difference between climbing a V five and climbing all v fives. Oh man. [00:09:30] Sean: That is so, so true. And on the root side of things, like, I've climbed hard here, but I still think of myself as a five 10 climber in a lot of ways. That's right. Yeah. 'cause five 10 means a lot of different things. Right. And I'm not a master of all those different things. [00:09:44] Dave: Well, and I've been always such a, um. Completionist and such a volume orientated climber that if you would, to ask me today what my climbing grade is, I'm gonna say something much more conservative. I'll probably say what my consolidated grade is, like, what I can do everything of. 'cause that's because those are the terms in which I think, right, because that's, that was foundational. Yeah, [00:10:03] Sean: yeah, yeah. question for you, but interesting to hear you're a volumous. 'cause I think I'm a little bit like that too. I like to do a bunch of different things or as many things as I can, as opposed to focusing too heavily on projecting one thing. But now I think, are you still a volumous? You're like, no, you're like, totally, I wish on like one problem for like three, four months. Right. Well, you're [00:10:26] Dave: skipping ahead, right? So, we're still in 2011. Okay, so you're skipping ahead until 2025. Geez. I [00:10:32] Sean: gotta get some more batteries for this, thing. [00:10:34] Dave: The issue is, um, the goal was to complete everything, but I needed to level up in order to get there. And so that's where all of the other projects that have become associated with my original climbing project, which, was just to climb everything evolved because I needed a path forward. But then as you progress through the sport, it, it's naturally gonna change your engagement with it. And the other thing that I've always been pretty good at is just reinventing the game to keep myself, uh, fully engaged. I can't be a vol anymore because I've run out of things to climb. Of course, I've, of course. Yeah. and just the same way that, once I did all the fours and fives and sixes and sevens and eights and nines and tens, you, you can see that. You can see the thing. The problem is [00:11:21] Sean: there's fewer and fewer and it's harder. There's fewer and fewer, [00:11:24] Dave: and it's harder and harder. So then I have to focus to, to. Realize my goal of full completion, I have to up my game. I have to improve my, um, my climbing. You know, I have, I have to find a way forward, and that's not easy. And so it's getting harder and harder, and there's fewer and fewer lines. And so I'm just naturally adapting. And my true love would be just to, climb a new single day challenge every single day for the rest of my life. but, but you're, you've run out. But I ran out of that. Yeah. Interesting. And so if I could go back to those days, yeah. Those were probably the, well, I don't know. I mean, to say what the most fun has been. What, what have I, what have I enjoyed? it's, uh, yeah. It's, it's different. [00:12:05] Sean: So you mentioned kind of reinventing yourself a few times along the way. Yes. Has that been a conscious thing or is it just kind of naturally happened? [00:12:14] Dave: Well, it's been necessary. [00:12:17] Sean: Yeah. Right, [00:12:18] Dave: Because So meaning [00:12:18] Sean: you, you kind of got bored at certain points. No. Or you got unmotivated? No, you get [00:12:22] Dave: stuck. You get stuck. Like there's no clear path. So how do you go from being a V four climber to being a V 13 climber? There's no clear path there. Right, And, and there's no guarantee you're ever gonna make it either. So if my goal is to, to was to do everything that, but I need, I needed to, I needed somehow to make that happen. And what would happen is, is that at various points, I got stuck. So I get to a certain level and I'd climb basically more or less everything at that level with, you know, a few outliers here and there, but with no clear path to the next level. And so that's when the reinvention happens, right? So I see where I wanna be, but I'm not there. That's when the focus shifts and the game changes, and you reinvent your way forward. [00:13:00] Sean: Where would you look, where would you look to find out how to reinvent yourself? Was this all self-driven and create created from, from your, your mind? Or were you reading books or? Was there online stuff at [00:13:13] Dave: the time or, well, even today, the, uh, online resources are very poor. That's why the mainstream information with regards to sort of how to get, how to improve at climbing doesn't really work. And everybody kind of knows. Interesting. Everybody kind of knows that, right? Because if it did work, then people wouldn't get stuck. But they, you know, you've been, you've been around for a long time and you've, you had your own journey in climbing and everybody kind of knows everybody kind of gets to a level and then you spend many, many years at that same flat Flat line. Flat line. Exactly. And so I, I did that. I, I got to my flat line and I wanted to progress, but nothing I did was working. And then you look for online resources. Certainly. I read books. I read books in climbing. I read books in other sports to see if any of it would translate to climbing. So, but there, there was nothing that really worked and that's when I had to start innovating. [00:14:07] Sean: Very cool because I mean that flat line you talk about, like, I think we all have different motivations. Right. For me, I, I was pushing myself as much as I could at a certain time, but I never liked working too hard. Yeah. I, I never, I was never like, I gotta get to this next level and how do I get there? Like, I was never that driven. So, [00:14:28] Dave: but even if you were, you still would flatline, it might just be at some, it might be at a slightly different, smidge higher. That's right. Gotcha. Smidge higher. Exactly. 'cause everybody does, right. I mean, just look at everybody who's ever been in the community. They all have a certain trajectory and then they have a sort of productive plateau where they do like most of their climbing. but it's, but people don't. Get better forever. They, they don't, uh, my, my plateau was too low. you know, my natural plateau was too low to, for your own liking? Well, not for my own liking, for my goal of, of getting all the climbs done. Yeah. Like, no, I'm still on the mission. Like, [00:14:59] Sean: you, you won't, you, have to see everything to completion, don't you? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. This is why I started it. This is an [00:15:04] Dave: obsession. I can't, I can't stop. I can never stop. [00:15:09] Sean: Awesome. [00:15:10] Dave: And so, um, you know, and so yeah, so I, I looked everywhere I could look and I read everything I could read, but there still is a large amount of experimentation that has to take place. You, eventually just commit to something, [00:15:22] Sean: does it work or not? And see [00:15:22] Dave: if it works or not. [00:15:23] Sean: Yeah. [00:15:24] Dave: and, you know, that's what I did. And. There was a, a solid 10 years where I was motivated, like you say, uh, I never, I was, uh, I never minded grinding. [00:15:38] Sean: No, You're, you're a grinder. [00:15:39] Dave: Yeah, I'm a grinder. Yeah. But still, I wasn't finding that way forward and so, yeah. Okay. So that's when, uh, that's when I started innovating out of necessity. [00:15:48] Sean: So what was your first, uh, experiment in innovation or, or major step, let's say? [00:15:54] Dave: Oh. Oh, goodness. that is a little too open-ended. [00:16:00] Sean: Okay. How about, and I'm gonna mess up the chronology here and you can jump on me again, but, at some stage in there, I think you had your own home wall, right? And you were trying to get stronger focused in there. Is that correct? [00:16:15] Dave: So I plateaued in about 2013 at the end of my medical residency. Okay. And I also took a job in New Brunswick, which pulled me away from the Nova Scotia climbing scene for a few years. What level were you plateauing at that point? Uh, V nine. V nine, okay. Yeah, and I just couldn't really get past that. The double digits it well. Yeah. And in Nova Scotia, there's a real harsh, there's, a real harsh, jump at that level. There's sort of all the lines, everybody gets done, and I did all of those ones. And, you know, we're thinking about, um, all the, uh, you know what it really is, there's all the lines that Nick Sagar developed and did the first ascent on, and then there's Ghislain's hardest. [00:16:56] Sean: Okay. Explain, explain, explain what you're saying. Well, saying there's, [00:16:58] Dave: there's quite a jump there. [00:17:00] Sean: So gilan stuff is a, is kind of harder than, it's a step above. [00:17:04] Dave: It's a step above, uh, s garbs. Yeah. [00:17:07] Sean: and, and, and maybe he is, you're doing something similar to what Zig was doing. Maybe you're kind of leapfrogging. So I'm guessing Zig maybe launched off of and was inspired by Nick's. That's right. Pushing levels. Yeah. And similarly, or you can explain how you got there, but you, you kind of. [00:17:22] Dave: Exactly. Yeah. She stood [00:17:23] Sean: on those shoulders. [00:17:24] Dave: Well, that's what the whole history of climbing has been, has been, you know, um, standing on the shoulders, of the developers who came before you and then trying to make your own addition. But what was happening is, is that, that I, I have a whole video on the difference between Nick and Ghislain's. Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to find it. Yeah. So that's that's a, that's a little bit of a rabbit hole on its own. Okay. But Zig came up, adapted to the local style here, and so he mastered The, the, the strength that he developed, in his, um, in his forearms was very specific to our Nova Scotia granite. Nick was an international pro, you know, an international pro. [00:18:06] Sean: Yeah. Climbing roots and Boulder. He was probably predominantly a rope climber. Exactly. Nick was Right. [00:18:11] Dave: And so he would come here in the off season and, you know, establish some of, you know, at that time Nova Scotia's hardest problems. But those were not problems that were, in, our style. Interesting. Yeah. And so because of that, they were much more, friendly to gym climbers, people with that kind of a background. [00:18:30] Sean: Oh. And they had real holds for, they had real holds. They had bigger [00:18:33] Dave: holds. Yeah. They had more straightforward power. Yeah. More powerful movement. Yeah. And more, and frankly, less nuance. And, that's how it goes. The developers will. End up developing the lines that they excel at. And so he developed in that, style and Zig developed at the similar level if you were to look at the grade on the rock climb. [00:18:53] Sean: Mm-hmm. [00:18:54] Dave: But in a much more difficult, um, style. In a much more difficult style because it's much more nuanced. It's somebody with a lot more local knowledge and local volume and with the strengths that are specifically adapted to the local rock. Interesting. And so that's kind of where I hit a wall, just through doing cli. Just try, try hard volume. I couldn't really get past Nick's hardest lot or I couldn't. I, got to sort of nick's hardest lines, but I, I couldn't break into Ghislain's hardest. And that's where I got stuck. And then my, my medical residency ended and I left Nova Scotia. And so then I'm sort of cast out into the wilderness. And I'm also, at the same time I'm hitting that long-term plateau where I'm not getting any further additional progress. So this is when I went to New Brunswick Yeah. To begin my career. Oh, cool. [00:19:43] Sean: Fredericton, or [00:19:44] Dave: I was in St. John. [00:19:45] Sean: How'd you like [00:19:45] Dave: that? It was a great place, um, to practice medicine. [00:19:49] Sean: Okay. [00:19:50] Dave: Yeah. Uh, the rock climbing is not great. There is now, but at the time there, there is a [00:19:54] Sean: lot happening now, but I don't know about the boulders necessarily. The boulders down, so [00:19:59] Dave: the boulders down the coastline near St. George. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where my buddy Seb has been developing are pretty spectacular. Oh, okay. But those weren't really known about at the time, and it was a, just a local rope climbing scene. And so again, I didn't have access to bouldering and, uh, so I set my sights onto trying to develop training protocols that would allow me to make that jump into the higher tier of established problems in Nova Scotia. And so that's when I, uh, rented the storage locker. Because, there wasn't a bouldering gym, so I thought, I'll build a moon board. But I lived in a small apartment and there wasn't space inside for it, nor was there ceiling height. So I, uh, went to Apple self storage, rented a decently sized, storage unit, clandestinely cut the chicken wire on the top of the storage unit so that I could extend my moon board out above the height limit. And, uh, I train, I, I climbed and trained in there for several years, and that's where again, I started making for a, it took a lot of experimentation, a lot of research, a lot of trial and error. But then I started making forward progress again. [00:21:03] Sean: All by yourself? Were you self motivated through that whole period? [00:21:06] Dave: Yeah, well, I was, uh, the only access to a gym I had was in f Fredericton, new Brunswick, actually. The, um, the university gym there. I like that. Super old [00:21:15] Sean: school. [00:21:15] Dave: Well, that was Zigs home gym, right? Yeah. And that was, uh, John Bowles was out of there and, and Mitch [00:21:19] Sean: Mitch the ball. [00:21:20] Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so there was, and uh, and Nick said Nick and Heather sort of did have a tie with, uh, that group of climbers as well. [00:21:27] Sean: Oh, neat. [00:21:29] Dave: and so. It was kind of an extension of the, uh, Nova Scotia community, like a sister community, if you will, because I mean, our strongest climber, Gilan was out of Fredericton. Right. Ben Blakeney was out of New Brunswick as well. Oh man. Yeah. And so heavy hitters here. But, and while John, uh, balls, he won Canadian nationals at Tour de Block. Wow. you know, you have a national level climber climbing outta that gym. And what that speaks to is, um, the importance of the right climbing culture, because Fredericton is not a large population center. Right. So how does the strongest climber in Canada, arguably that year, Uh, how, did they come out of a, a gym in, uh, in Fredericton, new Brunswick, which is a tiny backwater really. They had the, like you see in, uh, a lot of European gyms, they, had a good culture of hard climbing. So if you go to France, you'll, you'll see that. [00:22:19] Sean: Me. It's normalized. Hard climbing is just normal. Exactly. Normal. That's right. And, [00:22:24] Dave: uh, and you know, you go to France obviously with, with font there and with a long climbing history and, a large population center, well, then you get the best climbers in the very, in the world. [00:22:32] Sean: Mm-hmm. [00:22:33] Dave: But, but even a, even a small backwater like Fredericton, new Brunswick, uh, no offense if Fredic is listening, they won't be listening. Yeah. But, uh, can still produce a national level climber, you know, with the right culture of, uh, of hard climbing. And so [00:22:49] Sean: Cool. Cool. So you got plugged in when you were training in your locker? [00:22:52] Dave: Yeah. In St. [00:22:52] Sean: John. You would pop [00:22:53] Dave: up? I would pop periodically, pop, and John Bowles would be there. And, uh, he's, and uh, and that's where I met my buddy Seb and sort of Okay. He was my, would go on to sort of, what's [00:23:03] Sean: Sebs last name? [00:23:04] Dave: Pacey Smith. [00:23:05] Sean: Okay. [00:23:06] Dave: he, would go on to be my sort of long distance training partner. Nice. In that era. Cool. and. Seb has gone on to be a, you know, a very strong climber. He, uh, just won a world championship for, uh, grip sport in Las Vegas. [00:23:23] Sean: No way. Yeah. Is he using the hand of God? [00:23:26] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:29] Sean: Cool. We'll get, we'll get there a little bit later. Yeah. So, so we're [00:23:31] Dave: producing, uh, we're producing world class, uh, grip strength athletes, uh, here now in the, in, in our small backwater Amazing Eastern Canada. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. But yeah, so I, I met Seb and I trained in the storage locker as life would have it. I had a job opportunity back in Halifax. I came back and I wasted, well, actually, you know what? It's funny. I had a job opportunity back in Halifax. I came back to Halifax, said, do you know what I did? I rented another storage locker and put a moon board in it. Yeah. Because that's at that, it, it works. It works. You know. It works. Yeah. You can do it again. Exactly. That's what I was into at the time, and it did take me about a year to re-engage with the outdoor climbing. But when I did, when I finally got sucked in again for the, the second, really the third time, this would be my third time engaging with Nova Scotia climbing. 'cause I'd gone away Sure. Two times. And I just really hit the ground running. And that it, it was on at this point. And I was going to finish the goal of climbing absolutely everything because I had a way forward from a, from a strength perspective. I could finally get my hand strength up to where it needed to be to get all the climbs done. And I just needed to get volume on rock to get my skill up to the point where I could do the more nuanced climbs. And Jesus lands harder style, like I alluded to. And yeah, the rest is history. that would've been in 2019. 2020. And I mean, you could just look at my YouTube history. I, I, climbed, everything. [00:24:55] Sean: You had finally completed that project. Completed the project started [00:24:58] Dave: in, uh, 2011. Project finally got completed probably around 20 21, 20 22. That's 10 year. 10 year journey. 10 year journey. I did. All of Ghislain's climbs and all, you know, the most, like all the obscure ones. I got a boat, Cian's Echo. I did, I did Cian's Echo here. on, on River Road. I got a boat so that I could do, uh, my new papa alone. Like, I mean, I, I I was a completionist. It all had to get done, so. Cool. [00:25:26] Sean: Had, did you celebrate in some way? [00:25:28] Dave: Well, you know, the funny part is, is that I couldn't exactly tell you the day when it all ended. It just kind of tapered off. There was fewer and fewer lines left and I would get another one done and yeah. And eventually I looked around and what am I gonna climb today? And it started, that's, when I, yeah, that's when I had to change the game again and say, okay, the local climbing has been a, has been a progression of standing on the shoulders of the developers who came before you. And I completed everything basically that Nick and Zig had done. So it was time to make my own contribution. And that's when I started. Developing lines for the very first time. [00:26:08] Sean: You must have during that, you're, ticking all those roots. Yep. Over the years, you must have spied lines at that point. That inspired perhaps and maybe looked too hard at the time, or you must have had built up a catalog of potential projects or, or was that not the case? You, you weren't even looking at, you were, you were focused on the other goal. I wasn't even [00:26:28] Dave: looking. And, you know, the other thing too is I've always, so some people that's, this [00:26:34] Sean: is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So how [00:26:35] Dave: do I say, how do I say this nicely? Some people like to do, some people really want to do first descent. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And they wanna do first a sense. Way, way earlier in the climbing journey than where I was. [00:26:50] Sean: yeah. I, that came into my head. As soon as you, [00:26:52] Dave: yeah. And you know, when you do, when you do everything that somebody's done, like when you do, you know, you climb everything that there is to climb in the guide. You climb out the whole guidebook, you do all of Ghislain's lines, you do all of Nick Sagar's lines, you do all of the lines from the generation before that [00:27:09] Sean: you, [00:27:10] Dave: certain developers, they have a certain almost character. I was gonna [00:27:13] Sean: ask you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You [00:27:14] Dave: can, you can feel like, you know, a, a zig line or a nick line. Interesting. And you can, 'cause you're having that shared experience with them. Yeah. But you can also sort of feel their development ethos. Like the problem is the problem. That's cool. The problem is the problem. But certain people are drawn to certain problems. Right. Their, [00:27:29] Sean: their particular strengths. Exactly. Inspiration. Yeah. 'cause. It's interesting you say that's clearly evident in bouldering on the, on the route climbing side of things. There's a certain, uh, I guess the same thing, right? What the style you're attracted to. Yeah. And, you know, the, if it's a sport route or you know, how, how you bolt the route, it's very evident, you know, what developer does. Yeah. What, but anyways, go back to this. Uh, well, you can style feel from the d That's right. [00:27:56] Dave: Yeah. So the style feel. But, so what happened to me is that there would always be like the one-offs, there'd be somebody who didn't really contribute much to the, um, to the climbing legacy locally as a whole, but they'd have one first descent. Right, You know, like, me. Well, or, [00:28:14] Sean: uh, Tim Keel [00:28:15] Dave: maybe. No, yeah. I wasn't even thinking about the, yeah. I wasn't thinking about more so many of those guys. It would be somebody who was more integrated. 'cause those were people on away trips who would come and they would do, they, they would just get a line done. Chris Eager. Who, [00:28:28] Sean: who come, who's coming to mind? Who'