Episode 7 Heather Transcript [Heather]: I am gonna try this thing until I bleed, and then I'm gonna get tape and I'm gonna try some more. You're scaring yourself out of your mind. You are very in the moment, and so that's when you actually perform at your best. That's that flow state that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi talks about. [Sean] : Hey everybody. Welcome to another Icebox Session. My name is Sean Cassidy and we are in conversation with Nova Scotia rock climbers. Today we are chatting with the legendary Heather Reynolds. Heather has been a driving force in the Nova Scotia climbing community for the last 35 years from dirty old trad routes at Main Face to the pristine environment of the modern climbing gym. Heather has literally done it all. She wrote a book on performance rock climbing and has coached for many years. She's bouldered with Lynn Hill and traveled extensively as a sponsor climber in the 1990s. Nine months after giving birth via C-section, she sent Tsunami - one of our original bouldering test pieces. This woman is bad-ass. Welcome to the Icebox. [Heather]: Thank you. It's quite something. [Sean] : What do you mean by that? [Heather]: I love your wall. You have a nice little wall. [Sean] : You are the first one to say that. [Heather]: There's lots of things to look at. Lots of colors, lots of things to look at. I noticed your plaque. [Sean] : Yes, [Heather]: I have one too, but my very petite sojourn as the President of Climb Nova Scotia. I was like, we gotta get back to that. That has to happen more. [Sean] : I think that was Mick Levin's idea. [Heather]: It was, recognizing people who've made big contributions to the community, I think is so important. And it's the one successful thing I managed to do. I did two successful things in my very brief period as the president. [Sean] : Your brief return. You were President years ago, I think, right? [Heather]: No, I was never President years ago I was secretary and, I don't even think I was VP when it first started. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: But I was one of the original. People. And to me, a large part of what Climb Nova Scotia should do is it should be perpetuating that desire for people to be involved in the community - the provincial organization giving back. And to do that, you give to them. Like you have to find some way to honor their contributions. Like the work that Nathan Benjamin has done, all the Benjamins. Really? [Sean] : Absolutely. [Heather]: And none of them have been reognized [Sean] : They don't have plaques yet? So we're pointing to a bit of granite, which is, can you read it from there? It's like the lifetime, no, it's.... [Heather]: Lifetime membership to Climb Nova Scotia for your contributions to the climbing community in Nova Scotia. Yeah. Yeah. [Sean] : Really nice. and you're right, there's lots of people that should be recognized. [Yes. ] beyond our little cohort that got recognized what 15 years ago? [Yeah.] Quite a while ago. It's, it's heavy to carry around with you. It'd be nicer to have a small membership card. [Heather]: I actually kinda like it. [Sean] : It's cool. [Heather]: I do. And I still have mine near my office where I work and I show it to people because I think when you work in an industry, especially in the sporting world, when you contribute in the sporting world, it's often volunteer. It's often a lot of your own time and sweat and knowledge that goes in to making things happen. And it's nice for that to be recognized. [Sean] : Yeah. It goes a long way, doesn't it? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : I was chatting with Greg Hughes about recognizing the efforts of, first ascensionists - all that effort of all those people....scrubbed lines and put up routes and I know you've put up a number of them. [Heather]: Yeah. I've been there. Even if I didn't do the first ascent, [Sean] : ..you were around for a lot of them. [Heather]: Yeah, I did a fair amount of belaying. But I think, where would we be if we didn't have those people who were willing to put in that time? And they're very special people. Like you look at the work Todd Foster has put in to putting information out for people in terms of what's available. And he does that on his own time. He tries to make money selling a book. Maybe it's not a lot of money for the amount of effort. [Sean] : It's, not as lucrative as podcasting, I can tell you that much. But yeah, that's what kinda makes the community feel like a community; where everybody is giving of themselves and of their own time to make something for everybody, [Heather]: Well, I think everyone on the planet wants to be recognized and seen for the contributions they make. And so when a community organization looks at you and says, "Hey, we appreciate what you've done", you kinda go, "oh, I am a part of the community. I do belong". And I think as climbing has grown, the downside is you don't get as much of that. [Sean] : Yeah. Let's come back to that. There's some themes around community and how the space has changed over the years that I really wanna dive into a little bit. So I did a bit of research last night trying to understand your, history and the the stuff you've done. It's quite amazing. Like you've built a life around climbing. [Heather]: Yes. [Sean] : ..all different vocations within that. I moved here around 95, I think, and I had been climbing a number of years before that, but I arrived and I saw evidence of your contributions and Sean Willett and Nick Segar. None of you guys were around. You had... it was like a vacuum had been left. [Heather]: I was on the road. [Sean] : You were on the road at that point? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Before that period. Before I got here, a lot of stuff had happened. A lot of effort and milestones. In terms of, creating Climb Nova Scotia, building a wall at the Dalplex, a guidebook for climbing here, route development, all kinds of stuff. So maybe just back it way up and tell us how did you get started? [Heather]: Okay, so through the Trail Shop, I wasn't yet working there. Through the Trail Shop, I met Sean Willett and someone had said, do you wanna go climbing? And that's how I met Sean Willett. And I went out and I had one of those moments that first day where I was like, this is what life is about. [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: Oh, I've been doing it all wrong. This is what life is about. Yeah. And, Sean's a socially awkward person - he's an academic. And I was walking on Spring Garden Road two weeks later and he pulled his car in front of me at a sidewalk and he's remember me? We went climbing. And I said, yeah. And he said, do you wanna go climbing on Friday? And I was like, sure. And so then I just started climbing regularly with him and his problem had been, he couldn't find people to go regularly. And then all of a sudden he finds me and I'm like, yeah, I wanna go. [Sean] : "Can you belay? Get in the car!!" [Heather]: You don't wanna know how bad the first experience belay, because when I think back now, I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have trusted me. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I learned from him. And of course he had a great deal of experience and, I was hooked right away and started climbing regularly with him. And at the time, I was a flight attendant. [Sean] : Get outta here. [Heather]: And I can remember because [Sean] : That was not on the resume that I [oh my God.] I collected for you! [Heather]: I can remember because of the pain in my fingertips sometimes touching hot meal trays. So I ended up quitting being a flight attendant for that reason, but for other reasons too. And I ended up working at the Trail Shop, which put me in touch with gear and in a way, community. And so during that early stage, Sean and I were out at Paces Lake on a long weekend, September. And this Boy Scout troop comes through and they're all walking across the top not knowing what they're doing, way too close to the edge. And then the landowner was out there. And the landowner [Sean] : is this Main Face or first face. [Heather]: Main Face. And the landowner is I gotta put up no trespassing signs. And that started a conversation. And then that's how, Climb Nova Scotia was born because he was threatening to close out access. Sean's from Utah originally. And so we got in touch with the Access Fund. And the access fund said organize. And as soon as you get organized, then you can start working together with the landowner. So pulled the climbing community together. I remember we met at the Dal plex in the pool conference room, and that very first meeting there were disagreements about what Climb Nova Scotia should be and do. [Sean] : And it continues to this day, [Heather]: that is still the case. [Sean] : Awesome. [Heather]: And yeah, so that was the birth of Climb Nova Scotia. [Sean] : I think there's real value in Climb Nova Scotia as an organization, but I think it feels like that organization doesn't know what its purpose is - or the community doesn't know what its purpose is. And one of the most important things, I think, is access to climbing areas. And I find that super refreshing to understand that's how it started. Yeah. And we take it for granted with Main Face in particular now. Adam Benjamin owns a good part of it and he's supportive of us being there. And then prior to that, what was his name? Marc Hamilton? [Heather]: Yeah, I think it is Hamilton. [Sean] : Anyways, I know him as Marc. Owns a good chunk of E-Gully and that part of Main Face and the access trail, and he's been great to deal with over the years. Probably smooth over by relations with Climb Nova Scotia years ago. That's right. You used to have to be a member to climb there. [Heather]: That's right. And where I worked at the Trail Shop, I sold the memberships. yeah. right at the Trail Shop when I was working. And so it was easy to build the community. Plus Sean, we brought someone in from Ontario, rock Climbing Association, and we got certified to teach [Sean] : Was that Rob Chisnall? [Heather]: Yeah, Rob Chisnall. [Sean] : Okay. He taught me to climb. Yeah. [Heather]: Very big book about knots. [Sean] : Yes. [Heather]: And he came down and he took us out and certified folks to teach climbing outside. And so then Climb Nova Scotia was offering outdoor instruction. Mike Sutton wanted to go to Everest, and then he had the physio clinic at Dow and he wanted Dal to put a wall in, and that's how the Fieldhouse wall was born. Plus there was a gentleman, if you go into the Fieldhouse in Dalplex there's a plaque on the wall. [Sean] : Oh, Brian Adams. [Heather]: Yes. Brian Adams and his son had died and he contributed to the construction of that Fieldhouse wall [Sean] : In memory of his son. [Heather]: Yeah. And so that was a field house wall. [Sean] : Do you remember the dates on any of these events? If you asked me the same question, I couldn't tell you dates of my past life. But do you remember any dates, like when Climb NS was formerd, for example [Heather]: 1991? [Sean] : 91. Okay. [Heather]: In the fall. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: Fieldhouse wall went in - 'cause it was Climb Nova Scotia who did all the tea nuts and the texturing and all of that for that wall. It was facilities maintenance at Dal that put the structure directly to the wall. But we did all the other prep work - and then Sean Willett did all the route setting and I helped him with that. Yeah, around 91 was when it opened. 92 was when it opened, and then the Rock Court opened 2002. [Sean] : 10 years later. [Heather]: 10 years later. [Sean] : Okay. you mentioned that when you first went out with Sean Willett that, mind blown, this is what life should be all about. And I think it's common for all of us. it's often an immediate spark that changes the direction of our lives. [Heather]: I don't know if people get that in the gym as much. I think some [Sean] : hmmm I that's a fair point. [Heather]: I think for me it was nature and , especially if you're tradclimbing, 'cause that first climb, first climbs I was doing were dread. And, you're just in nature. There's that moment of solitude because your partner is way on the other end of that rope. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And you're trying to figure it out and you're on your own and you're like, wow. Yeah. This is what life should be about because you have no other major problem in life except for how do I not die here? [Sean] : Yeah. It brings focus! [Heather]: It really does. And it lets the rest of that garbage go and you just focus on that moment that you're in and the beauty of that moment. And I don't know how much you can get that in the gym with the music going and the people yelling and the, [Sean] : Am I believing my ears? I'm hearing a lifelong gym operator, owner, certifier, advocating for dirty trad climbing. "It's life changing." I think that's what I just heard. [Heather]: I had that experience bouldering too, so I don't wanna say [Sean] : Yes, fair enough. [Heather]: and sport climbing. But I think to me, the gym, when I got into the industry, inside the gym. Really, it was all about: oh, you gotta try this because this is amazing and I'm gonna show you how to get in your body and enjoy climbing even more. Because Nick said this and he, it was, he's absolutely right. He said "the harder you climb, the more routes you have to climb". And so from my experience, climbing was always about... I have to share this with people. And the easiest way to find that audience and do that is in a gym. [Sean] : Yeah. And you've lived in the gym since that time? Really, a running I don't know what you call it.... "body experimentation " or something?! [Heather]: That sounds weird. [Sean] : This is fun. We're gonna bounce around a bit, but we're talking about your passion of coaching and helping people understand their bodies... [Heather]: yes. [Sean] : Movement and accelerating their skills and climbing and experiencing more and more. As I understand it that sort of like focus on performance stemmed out of your master's degree in kinesiology, which ultimately led to you writing a, book on performance rock climbing? [Heather]: Yes. So 94, when Nick and I went on a climbing road trip, I also had managed to arrange with the university - 'cause I was in a master's program studying what makes someone a good rock climber - and Chris Hill, knowing folks at the Boulder Rock Club in Colorado, helped me set up being able to collect data for my thesis project with climbers in Colorado. So our road trip took us to Boulder and I went into the Boulder Rock Club and I met: Pat Ament, Jimmy Redo and Tommy Caldwell at 13. And, we set up my thesis study project and I tested people and people were really [Wow. ] receptive and happy to see that someone was researching, climbing and this was great. And then Nick and I ended up in BC in Vancouver for me to write the thesis and I was never very happy in BC. It was so expensive to live meant you didn't have a lot of time to go climbing. And then when you're in Vancouver and you're having to drive to Squamish to go climbing. That's quite a drive. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: Nick was gonna give up climbing [at that point?]. So he went down to -you really should interview Nick! [Sean] : Oh, I will definitely. Yeah. Yeah. [Heather]: ..he went down to Smith Rock with a friend of ours and they did this road trip. His goal was to do a 13 A in Smith, typical Nick fashion He did a 13a 13b and a 13 b/c [Sean] : Yeah. Wow. [Heather]: In one trip. And he came back, he had no goals, he had no tick, all the boxes, no plan. And he was like, I don't know, maybe I'll go back to school. And I was like, Okay. I was a little stunned and we weren't actually getting along at that point. We had broken up, but we were still both still living in BC and I said, you never really tried trad climbing. You should try trad climbing. And we knew all these people who trad climbed. We knew guides. And he said, could we go tomorrow? And I said, sure. So I had this very minuscule small rack from trad climbing and we had been sport climbing for the last year and a half. So this rack had just been carted around with us. And we went up and we did this 5.10b and it was me standing at the bottom of [Angels Crest probably?. Here's how you place gear. ] [Sean] : Go. [Heather]: And he did. And of course if you can do 13 b/c you're not too worried on a 10. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: So he went up that thing and he was like, okay, alright, we should do something bigger. We should do like a real thing. So he goes to the gym that night and the next day I find myself on the Grand Wall. What in Squamish? And he's leading and [Sean] : Wow. Learning to jam on the fly. [Heather]: Yeah. He's borrowed gear from these friends of ours who are guides who've given him all this hype that are like, oh yeah, it's gonna be great. Meanwhile, I'm his second and the hardest hardest pitch on that is 11. There's actually an aid ladder on it, and when you're five foot three and a half, they don't place the bolts for you. So you actually end up working twice as hard. [Sean] : There used to be a rope on that, didn't it? [Heather]: To get up this bolt ladder and then, Perry's layback [that's brutal], and we didn't know enough about trad climbing on big walls, and so I'm climbing Perry's Layback 11 D. Which is the hardest thing I've red pointed in sport climbing, and I have got a fanny belt with our lunch and water and the rope hanging off the end of me and the shoes. So I'm trying to climb Perry's Layback with all this stuff. And I got to the top. I thought I was gonna throw up. I'm laying there on the, I'm like, I wanna go down. I'm done. Yeah. And Nick's like we have three pitches....we are not going down. I'm like, I wanna go down. I don't wanna climb anymore. So he convinces me to keep going. And then of course we had to do Belly good ledge. Yeah. Oh my God, Sean, [Sean] : Which is how you traverse off the cliff [Heather]: at that point. traverse off. So Nick goes across and he stands up and starts shuffling, and I'm like Oh, I'm not liking this idea at all. This is not a good idea. And he gets to the other side, he said, okay, you have to come. So I start with the shuffle and I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. And I go right back. So then I'm on my belly, [Sean] : which is the, name of the ledge, [Heather]: ..which is why it's called Belly Good Ledge. And I am inching my way across after a full day of climbing. And I'm in the blazing sun, and I got halfway across and I started to laugh and I was in that hysterical laughter, and I just looked at him, I said, I'm never gonna be here again. Ever. I'm done. I'm never gonna do this again in my life. [Sean] : You mean rock climbing in general or trad climbing specifically? [Trad climbing.] Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. So you're promoting trad climbing earlier, and then you're like, done you're done with it. [Heather]: And so we walked down and it was like a salve. We had, there was something about that day that reconnected us. [Sean] : Oh, nice. Even though it sent you in different directions, you directly away from trad. And then Nick accomplished some fantastic things, with, Tommy Caldwell after that for one. [Heather]: And for, it was like a healing in many ways too. [Sean] : Neat. Neat. [Heather]: And we both had done something outside our comfort zone. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And we talked about it and I said, you're never gonna be this age again, and this is when you are peak physicality and you've always wanted to do 14b. You should go do that. And so he left and went on the road within a very short window of that conversation. [Sean] : And you were still in Vancouver at the time? Or did you move back home? [Heather]: I was still in Vancouver trying to finish up writing my thesis project. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: And, he's you should, be here with me. And so we went back on the road. [Sean] : You were on the road for a while, weren't you? [Heather]: Five years, [Sean] : living out of a van or crashing on people's sofas or what? Were you doing? [Heather]: so mostly out of a vehicle. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: we went through a few vehicles, couple car accidents. [Sean] : Oh dear. [Heather]: And. but we also had met some amazing humans who were so kind and so generous and, park your van in our yard. So just not living out of a van. [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: When you get to go in a house and use the shower. [Sean] : Yeah. Still counts. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : So where, are some other spots you hit on your road trip? [Heather]: we left [Sean] : some of the highlights. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : So you probably went five years, man. You would've, you would hit 'em all. [Heather]: We, hit quite a few. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: We, when we started, we went, of course we'd been to New England lots of times. Yeah. But that was the first stop. Then we went down to, New River Gorge. I learned what copperheads were. Then we went, all the way across to Colorado. got things set up. We went to Vegas, we went to American Fork, Vegas, Texas, Hueco. we didn't get bouldering. [Sean] : You didn't get it. [Heather]: That was, didn't understand it. That was 1994. We're like, what is this? This doesn't seem, I don't know. [Sean] : Yeah. What is this bouldering stuff? [Heather]: What is this bouldering thing? It doesn't seem, you don't get pumped. I don't get it. [Sean] : Yeah. That's another, that's a whole other story, I think. [Heather]: Yeah. And then we went to Smith Rocks. Oh, one of my favorite places. Smith Rocks and then, up to Vancouver. And then we did that sort of circuit [Sean] : seasonally. [Heather]: Seasonally, [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: And climbed that. And we added in Kentucky as Kentucky blew up In popularity, went to Utah less and added in the Virgin River Gorge. [Sean] : Oh, okay. I've never been there. Isn't that on that highway or something? [Heather]: Yeah, it is. some pretty classic routes there. We did get to California as well, so just did this circuit where we traveled a lot, but it was nice to go to a place and be there for a month. And then that was about my limit of not talking to people and coaching. And I would have to be, I'd be like, we, need to go make money. I need to talk to humans and coach. [Sean] : Okay. where were you doing the coaching then? Just in different spots? [Heather]: Yes. [Sean] : As you were going along different gyms. [Heather]: So in 95 we went, we had this crazy thing happen where I had to defend my thesis. We came and we were down in Kentucky and we had met the owner of Joe Rock Heads and he said, come coach, work people with people in my gym. So we went up there, worked with people in his gym, and while we were there we were like, we really should move out of the Mazda GLC. [Sean] : That was my first car. That's a small car. Really? I didn't know that. [Heather]: And funny, and it was cold, it was November, so we were like, it would be nice to have a truck you could sleep in the back of, [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: So we bought a truck. We finished up coaching. Get on the road, the 401 to come here. It's snowing. Driver's side tire blows. My thesis defense is in a couple of days and the truck rolls into the ditch. [Sean] : Oh wow. [Heather]: And we're upside down. And fortunately we weren't harmed. And these people are on the side of the road: are you okay? And I'm like, my thesis defense is the day after tomorrow! And we got the truck towed. We had to rent a car drive in that snowstorm to Nova Scotia. I somehow managed to get through my thesis defense. We had Christmas with family. We had $200 in our pockets and two boxes of power bars. And we decided we were still gonna go back because you, on the road, [Sean] : you were sponsored climbers s you had power bars. [Heather]: Not even sponsored at that point. So we went back out on the road with 200 bucks. Yeah. And a credit card. And a dream. Anyway, we made it to Colorado. We get to the Boulder Rock Club. We're working with some people. They had just opened their new location, New Year's Eve, and so we're sleeping in a truck in Colorado, new Year's Eve. The owners at the gym were like, why don't you come to the Outdoor Retailer Show with us, you'll get to meet gym owners. And we were like, okay, that sounds cool. So we go to Nevada. It was in, Reno. We meet gym owners. First time of my, this is the original climbing wall association before the Climbing Wall Association. This is how gym owners started meeting. And we had, got to meet people. The fellow who owned, The gym in near San Francisco, the Bay Area. So he says, yeah, come work with people in my gym. And we're like, okay. And so we load up and we drive to California and we go to his gym. We're doing some work, which is where I found Pete's Coffee, which I still drink to today. And then we had also met at the Outdoor Retailer Show. We had met the folks from five 10 and we were wearing five 10 moccasins at the time. And they had said, sure, come tell us what you're doing. So we went down there for, to see if we could get some sponsorship. And that was down in Southern California. So we drive down there. The next day we go in, this beautiful woman, Karen sets us up. She says, okay, here's sponsored. We're gonna give you bags of demo shoes. And whenever you're working in gyms with people, you pull out our demo shoes. We're like amazing. Load up the truck with this bag full of demo shoes. Pull out of the parking lot. We drive three blocks, get broadsided in intersection. Intersection. The truck is totaled. [Sean] : Oh my [Heather]: God. And we're sitting on the side of the road with 400 in our pockets, bags full of shoes and no vehicle. We had to give up on the climbing trip and go make money. But it was amazing because I got to meet so many amazing humans. Like it's just I can't tell you how many amazing humans in the world there are, but you go to these climbing areas and you'd end up meeting, we met Tommy when he was 13 and his dad and I can't tell you how many times we hung out with them. And then because of, we knew Tommy, we met Chris Sharma and then we met Beth Rodden, Katie Holmes. You, so you meet all these people and for me watching them was so insightful because I would just, Chris did our hang board test and when he did our hang board test, I am watching this kid. Yeah. 14 years old, 15 years old. His entire back is flushed red with effort. Yeah. And he is not letting go. He has out hung anybody I've ever tested on this thing and he's just not letting go. And even when he finally fell, he was still holding on as he was falling. Wow. Like the effort was still tenacity there. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And so it was like, oh my God, this is what separates the pack. He does not let go. And then I'd be like, okay Nick, you can't let go. Like it's just gotta be your new thing. Like you just don't let go. [Sean] : That's it. It's as simple as that. [Heather]: Yeah. And you start training and I got to climb with, one day Boulder Rock Club. I had just worked with a client and then I was I was gonna climb. For me and Robyn Erbesfield and Lynn Hill walk in. [Sean] : Oh, wow. [Heather]: And they're like, Hey, you're just working with someone? And I'm like, yeah, I was just, do you want me to see Shoot here? And they're like, why don't we all climb together? Oh, okay. I'm scared. [Sean] : How is that? [Heather]: Yeah. Yeah. Because now I'm climbing with two of the best [Sean] : legends. [Heather]: Yes. Amazing legends. [Sean] : Women. Absolute legends. Yeah. Yeah. [Heather]: And Lynn is trying to figure out how this thing in the gym works. She's she's climbing inside. Yeah. Does it work? [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And which, [Sean] : where were you at this point? Where did you run into those guys? [Heather]: Boulder. This is Boulder, Colorado. And I was one of my best training sessions ever because there was no way I was letting go of You did not let it go. I was like, I am not letting go of anything. And I couldn't move my hands for two days after. [Sean] : Awesome. [Heather]: The effort. [Sean] : That's a good session. [Heather]: Yeah, it was a really good session. But that's the thing, you meet these amazing humans and you're just blown away by their mental game and that for me it was, I started by testing physical strength, flexibility. Then I figured out there's a relationship between how people move and what physical strength they have. 'cause I had the numbers I tested back and shoulder strength. I tested grip strength. Beth Rodden would blow you outta the water with her grip strength to weight ratio, not so great on the back and shoulder strength. But what kind of routes did she do really well on vertical, small holds? And so you start to see these patterns that people climb in the way that they are strong. And so then to train them, you've gotta get them to move in more ways. You have to change their movement patterns [Sean] : to work on the weakness, the [Heather]: parts to work on weaknesses. And what you need to do is train people how to move in the most efficient way possible. So that's the habit. And it's like the what neurons you fire wire together. So when you're trying to train a new weakness, you're trying to get as much muscle memory. With the new movement as they have with the old movement so that they have more tools in their toolbox. And then I was also always watching and listening for the mental game because people will say things or you'll watch those body cues that tell you they gave up. And so that's where you say, okay, now I've gotta choose, how do I work with this person on convincing? Getting past that mental game. So many people, if you say, I don't do red routes, you're not gonna do a red route. Yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And you're not even gonna bring the effort required to do a red route, which is why I love spray walls, because spray walls you, can decide how hard it is, and you don't have that mental barrier about whether you can or cannot do it. [Sean] : Yeah, you're opening up a bunch of stuff like, who was I talking with? [Heather]: Rich said that when you talk to him in the podcast. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: He said, getting on things you don't know the grades. [Sean] : Exactly. That's what I was thinking of. Exactly. You have no preconceived idea of [Heather]: so you just try do it. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah. So are you, am I hearing that you were discovering that the mental game is perhaps the greatest thing, the greatest, the hindrance or opportunity in improvement of climbing? [Heather]: Absolutely. [Sean] : Very cool. I believe so. which is funny coming out of your thesis work of strength testing and pinch pinching and hanging and [Heather]: I can't tell you how many times I saw people who were That's amazing. Super strong. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And I'm like, you should be climbing five 14 [Sean] : right? [Heather]: With these numbers. And they'd be like, no, I don't climb that hard. And that's why, [Sean] : yeah, [Heather]: there is nothing in your technical ability or your physical ability that says you can't climb that hard. [Sean] : There seems to, it seems to be a common thing that, gyms produce very strong climbers, but they off, it doesn't seem to translate outside in some cases. [Heather]: Not at all. [Sean] : Why? Why is that? [Heather]: especially today's movement is very, [Sean] : yeah. I'm learning what, yeah. [Heather]: Parkour style is what they call it. But this dynamic movement doesn't teach technical climbing. And so you can not have great core strength and still climb fairly well at the gym. Whereas if from climbing outside core strength was a big thing for a lot of the things that you try to accomplish outside, right? You have to have core strength because you can't just dino back onto something or it just doesn't work as well. And [Sean] : but you need core strength to catch a dyno, don't you? [Heather]: No. You need core strength to control the momentum after you catch the dyno. [Sean] : Okay. That's, what I was, [Heather]: And so if you watch people fall off, they can do the distance, but they can't contain the latch because there's too much momentum pulling them off the holds. And that's something I worked a lot with on when I was coaching the youth. It's about how do you generate and move, but then how do you latch. Distance is not as much the problem. [Sean] : So you were starting to talk about the current style of the parkour stuff. It breeds climbers that don't have the skills maybe to translate to outdoors as readily. Is that right? Is that fair? [Heather]: Yeah, I don't think so. the other thing, gym's, footholds are fairly apparent. That's a point. what it's like here point. [Sean] : That's a good point. [Heather]: it's like in Nova Scotia you're standing on some crystal. [Sean] : Yeah. Where the hell is that crystal? [Heather]: And, that's a little bit different. [Sean] : What about, here's, something I've been wondering about, like creativity of climbers and it points to that element of finding that foothold or imagining a possibility that's not, very obvious, [Heather]: Oh, we're into a fascinating topic. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: Okay. Remember I said you wanna have a big toolbox of movement? So one of the things I used to say to kids or young people that I would coach, I, would say travel, go to all the different outdoor places you can. What made me a, good climber was I could climb on sandstone, granite, limestone, you name it. [Sean] : Yeah, [Heather]: 100 Percent. I had traveled and all of those different rock formations teach you how to move differently and that made my toolbox really big. A gym hires setters move in a specific way. They set routes to meet the way they move, and so everybody who goes into the gym learns to move that way. And you've probably had this experience yourself. You go into a different gym and you're like, what is this setting? This is bizarre because the setters don't set the same way. And you're limiting that toolbox by only going to one gym. [Sean] : Yeah. that makes me think of.. what really bothers me is when people stay too tight into their lane that they don't want to go to another gym because they're gonna suck. Or they don't want to try track climbing because they're gonna suck. And it's like okay you could stay in the lane you're good at, but you're not getting better, or.... Like that diversity I think is so important or so much more fun. But who cares? like people could stay in their own gym or they can do parkour-y stuff. They don't have to be good outside. It really doesn't matter. [Heather]: Yeah. But nowadays. You look, everybody's life is lived on social media, right? [Sean] : I'm on Instagram now. I got a podcast Instagram thing. [Heather]: So everybody knows what everybody's doing. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And if you can't prove you're doing good stuff, then you know, you and I are a different generation. I don't post much on Instagram or on Facebook. if I'm posting me at a climbing gym, it's sitting next to my son, because we're climbing together and I'm excited about that. But it's not about the routes we're on. And so I, think because people live so much in that sort of social world, there's more fear of judgment and they don't wanna look bad. They don't, they fear that it - and I've experienced it myself. I started surfing when Nick and I moved back here. I started surfing and I actually loved it because I didn't have to be good at it. [Sean] : Ah, it's great being a kook. [Heather]: I was newbie. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah. [Heather]: And therefore I could fail and it was okay. Whereas all my climbing felt like, don't fail because people are gonna judge you. [Sean] : Especially when you're a, when you're a coach and you're selling your services to, [Heather]: and you run the gym, [Sean] : be the best. Yeah. It's such a common, [Heather]: yeah. [Sean] : handicap, which [Heather]: is, unless you can get your head around it, which again, you're back to the head game. [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: the most freeing moment in climbing for me in Nova Scotia was when I left Dalplex in 2014 and I opened a yoga studio. I took over a yoga studio, and I was no longer in the climbing world. And Seven Bays opened. 2015. Okay. May. And I was like, I'm going to go try it. But I wanted to go in and I didn't want anyone to know who I was like, [Sean] : so you wore a ball cap - low on your head. [Heather]: I was trying to hide. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And I, I ended up sitting on a bench next to this 22-year-old giving him beta, because that's what I do. [Sean] : That's very annoying, by the way. [Heather]: Yes. I try. I asked permission. I've learned to ask permission. So I had asked him permission and he said, okay. And I made a suggestion and then he tried it and he's that was really cool. And of course I'm trying something totally easier. And then he started talking to me about the route and his experience on it. And we had this conversation and I walked outta the gym that day and I thought, what sport? Oh yeah. What activity? [Sean] : Oh yeah. [Heather]: Can [Sean] : an old woman [Heather]: chat with a 22-year-old and have common ground. I love it. Absolutely. And common experience. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: And it's one of the amazing things about climbing is that you can talk to just about anybody and have some shared experience with them. [Sean] : I love it about the sport as well. It's, so cool. [Heather]: Yeah. Because, I was listening to you in your podcasts, or previous podcasts, and we remember moves on route, and if someone has done that route, you all, you're like, oh, and that moved. Suddenly you have this common conversation. [Sean] : What I think about sometimes is the shared, experience of a specific route. The routes outside are time pieces, the, red route's gonna change next week. Yeah. But you have these time pieces that are, that have exists whenever they got opened up. And if they become classic routes is 'cause they're really good. And you and I have both climbed the grand wall and we can have a connected experience thinking about Perry's Layback or, even down to, certain hand jams on routes that, John Long put up or something. there's, it's, I love that connection, of experience. [Heather]: Yeah. Yeah. You go to the same memories, like not, you didn't do it together, but you have a similar memory that you can discuss, which makes it really interesting. And I. I would say that when you work in the industry, you get that, but then you also work in the industry. And so it, has sometimes you have to be you or you armor more, armor up a little bit more because you have to hold yourself in a certain position. It's like coaches these days, you're now the level of climbing is getting so high. Coaches don't climb as hard as their athletes. And so now I know coaches who won't climb in front of their athletes and it's a way of protecting your image, your ability to. [Sean] : To sell a product, which is your [Heather]: well skill. Yeah. I, guess I bock a little at sell a product, but for your athlete to believe you can teach them something, it's better if there's a little mystery about your performance or how you perform. And we haven't transitioned yet to a place where athletes are willing to accept, not in this sport, but let's think about [Sean] : any other sport is exactly that way. [Heather]: It's exactly that way. [Sean] : you see an out of shape old man standing behind a hockey bench telling guys what to do that, that they could barely even do themselves at their prime - or not even do that themselves, [Heather]: But you have the experience of knowledge that you have in the thousands of hours of watching people move. [Sean] : Yeah, Oh, [Heather]: it still can inform what people are going to do or could do to improve, but it's not necessarily heard unless you can prove you climb hard. [Sean] : But I would guess that it's possible for coaches in certain sports, maybe even climbing, to be able to coach somebody without actually having done it themselves. Would you believe that? Do you believe that? [Heather]: Yeah. Yeah. It's also about setting, like if you think about it, it's also about setting. I don't have to be six feet tall to know how a six foot tall person is gonna move through that series of holds. I can imagine it, I can visualize it. And, that's because of the experience I've had both climbing in the past, but also in, watching movement and people of all sizes. And so new setters. A lot of people think they have to climb at a certain level to be a good setter or you have to understand movement to be a good setter, and you have to be able to see different bodies move to be a good setter. [Sean] : Very cool. [Heather]: And so we're not quite there yet in that element either. we haven't quite, I have the, amazing life where I get to meet with these people who are fabulous setters and have started to age. And of course they can't climb what they used to. Oh, [Sean] : I see. Yeah. Yeah. [Heather]: But they're still setting [Sean] : top-notch problems. [Heather]: Top-notch problems and amazing, interesting movement. But if they didn't have their name and the reputation or the job security they have right now, they might not get hired in another job. So it's yeah. Interesting. It's, it is a really interesting, it's an interesting time too, because we have that history is just getting to that point where we're hitting those age marks [Sean] : maturing [Heather]: to that next level. It's maturing to the point where you're starting to see those people age, and then it's so what's next for them? [Sean] : Probably a podcast! :) So we've talked, I'm really getting the picture, and I think I knew this, but you in a very real sense, define yourself as a coach. I think that's seems like your prime self definition way of defining yourself maybe. But let's talk about you as an athlete because all, all along that, journey road tripping all over. You talk about Nick's goals, but I'm sure you had some of your own and, you were pushing the envelope here for sure when you came back. But tell us a bit about your evolution and, [Heather]: where to start. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I'm blessed, with the body I got. My muscles naturally like powerful movements and I'm pretty flexible. I'm not amazingly flexible, but I'm pretty flexible. So I had a pretty good start. I need to move my body to be a happy human [Sean] : Don't we all. [Heather]: I know it really well that I need to move my body and so I'd always been physically active. And then when I came to climbing, it was natural for me to wanna keep getting better. And as an athlete, I'm not a, I wasn't happy competing. I did compete early on and I just didn't, I didn't like how it separated people. I'm actually pretty good when you put me under that competition spotlight. [Sean] : You can turn it on. [Heather]: I'll, I'm not gonna fail. [Sean] : You won't let go. [Heather]: It's like climbing with Lynn and Robyn. Yeah. I'm not letting go. Too many people are watching. But all the years Nick and I were together, he definitely had goals and I was like, okay, I'll find something wherever we go. So I had goals and I did work towards goals. I still have my journal books with all my written attempts and what went wrong and what I had to fix and all the routes. But with sport climbing, it wasn't as freeing to me as when I discovered bouldering - 'cause I would worry about the falls and I realiezed it wasn't the alls. [Sean] : Is sport climbing you worried about? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: Sport climbing. I worried about the falls and I realized I had that problem and I would do things. Smith rocks. I would climb up this route as a warmup 5.11. Before I'd get on my 12 and I'd climb this route up, and then there'd be a point where I'm like, okay, Nick, I'll take a fall and then warm me up for the falls. And I figured out, I couldn't say where I was gonna fall. I just had to decide not to latch a hold and then fall [Sean] : to force yourself to, to have that fall. [Heather]: Yeah. And one day he played out extra rope and I took the fall on purpose with the expectation. And then when I didn't get caught, I was like, and, but it never really worked for me. That wasn't a good way for me to get over it. And I realized what it was, it was the not being in control. I did not like failure, and I did not like not being in control. And so I would dial a route: "The Beast" in Rifle. I dialed that thing in. I could lap that thing on top rope. [Sean] : Oh, that's quite a hard one. [Heather]: 13. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I could lap it on top rope before I would lead it. Because I needed to know I was gonna lead it and not fall. And it, that's just the way it was for me. And when I discovered bouldering, the fascinating thing for me was the fear of falling went away. [Sean] : Which is weird because, depending on how high your boulder is, it's, [Heather]: I had to be, [Sean] : those falls are worse. [Heather]: I had to be so focused on the movement. There was no room. ' [Sean] : cause it was, the difficulty was so high [Heather]: because the difficulty was so high. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah. [Heather]: And so that was a big, like when I found bouldering, I was like, oh. My brain works better here. I can handle this a little bit better. Yeah. And I felt more control in this situation. And we had this experience where I went, we had just gotten married, it was 97, and Nick and Jared went on a road trip to Europe. I had Jared's dog, plus our dogs and myself. I went down to Hueco alone and I ran into people. But then there were all these dogs together and everyone's on leashes, and it was a zoo, which is my worst climbing experience ever. I'm like, wait, lineups, no thank you. So I decided I was gonna go find a boulder problem. I could try, and I found this thing on North Mountain. And I went to it by myself every day. And I'd put in so many attempts and it was a supposed to be a V8. I had never climbed that hard. I'd climbed 12 c the har, I was working on a V5 when I was with a crowd of people. And so it was like, I don't care. I'm here. Nobody's bothering the dogs. I can try this thing. And it was low ball, so [Sean] : Perfect. [Heather]: Yeah, it was perfect. And then I did it and, this guy walks up just as I'm sitting on the top and he is oh, cool, you did it. And I'm like, I think so. I had just been in such a mental state of focus that I wasn't even sure I had climbed it. [Sean] : Awesome. [Heather]: I was, and so then I climbed it again because I was like, I gotta make sure. That I did it, [Sean] : what was the route, do you remember the problem? [Heather]: I think it's called Frogger. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: Anyway, and then I didn't wanna tell people because I was like, nobody's gonna believe me. Oh, come on. Because I've never done like a V5 and I've never climbed anything super hard. And I went back and some people were really excited about it. So that summer Nick comes back from Europe, we go to Rifle and I'm gonna try 12 D and we go to this route that I've picked out and I am not even getting past the first three clips. And he's oh my God, Heather. You just did a V8, right? So he goes to the car and he gets the crash pad. He put the crash pad down. He's don't tie in, just climb it. And I did. I went to the third clip. No, try. No, no problem. [Sean] : Oh, I thought you were gonna say you sold the route [Heather]: went to Yeah. And that's just the way my brain is. [Sean] : Oh, interesting. Yeah. [Heather]: When you put the rope in [Sean] : the rope and all the clippy clips, it's just sort of mess with your brain. [Heather]: It messes with me [Sean] : Your brain. Yeah. [Heather]: So, [Sean] : you're no Alex Honnold, let's put it that way. [Heather]: no Alex Honnold for sure. So that's when I knew like I'm a boulderer. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: It just changed. [Sean] : So you finally full circle. You talked about checking out Hueco years and years ago and not really getting what's this bull run all about? And then I got it, and then here you are. Yeah. [Heather]: Yeah. And then I got it. And my body, my muscles. They're good at that fast twitch, high power. Nice. Yeah. Nick was fabulous with power, endurance, and recovery. Yeah. That guy could go, he went to rifle with Mia Axon for a weekend. They did 32 routes 5.13 plus in two days. [Sean] : Oh my God. [Heather]: Like he could just go like the Energizer bunny. I'm like, yeah, I'm more like a couple hours super hard moves. We're good. [Sean] : Yeah. Let's go grab a coffee. Crazy. [Heather]: Yeah, it was crazy. [Sean] : a lot of time on the road there and you came back a final time. Was that at some point to open, Rock Works [Heather]: 2020 or not 2020. [Sean] : Two thou [Heather]: 2000, what year was it? [Sean] : 2002. Lemme check my notes. [Heather]: 2000. It was [Sean] : 2000. Yeah, I think that's right. Yep. That's what I, [Heather]: so 2000, Nick's family had some health issues. My family had some health issues, and John and Greg, who owned the Trail Shop, had a store called Val Halla Pure in the business park. Oh, And they had told us about this gym next door that might need new management and introduced us to the person. And so we decided to come back and, run that gym [Sean] : as, management, not, owners, [Heather]: as management. [Sean] : Okay. And that was indoor adrenaline at that [Heather]: point. It, I forget what they called it. [Sean] : There's three gyms in there. [Heather]: maybe it was in [Sean] : yours was called Rock.... or conitnue with the story...continue with your story. [Heather]: So we arrived back here in July or August, early August, and, started running the gym and we called it Rock Works. [Sean] : Yes, Rock Works. [Heather]: And, lo and behold, by October we had bought a house when I was pregnant. So it was like, huh, I guess we're committed. New life. New life, big change. And, we ran the gym, Fynn was born. I went on maternity leave and while I was on maternity leave, the fellow who ultimately was responsible for that space and owned the gym, decided he was gonna close. It wasn't making enough money for him. [Sean] : Okay. [Heather]: So he was gonna close the gym and we were then unemployed, [Sean] : right? [Heather]: no, I was on maternity leave. Nick became unemployed, but Nick pursued being a sales rep shortly after that. [Sean] : Oh, okay. For a, gear company or something. [Heather]: And we had kids, I was coaching, and so I went to Sean Fraser who worked in athletics at Dal and I said these kids still need to climb. What arrangement could we make for them to use the Fieldhouse wall? Okay. And he said, sure, we can make that arrangement. So I was volunteering my time to coach them on the field house wall, and then Sean was like, or what if we were gonna build a better wall? And they picked Aldo, and Aldo came and put that wall in, in a matter of two weeks and the wall was in and we had jobs. So my part of it was to run the gym and Nick's part was setting and he was still doing the sales rep thing. So I was doing a lot of all of it. But we had just land around and, Zig was great. [Sean] : Yeah, [Heather]: he's good setter. And, Fynn was little, so Fynn grew up in the rock court [Sean] : now he's quite a climber now, I gather. [Heather]: Yeah. he's, he got good whenever he got the gene, Yeah, he's, doesn't get to climb as much, but whenever he and I are together we go climbing. [Sean] : Nice. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Nice. okay, so you went from the Rock Works, which closed down, opened the Rock Court, at Dalplex. New mom, busy juggling all that stuff. Back to Nova Scotia, whether you like it or not. [Heather]: and I did, after I had Fynn, it became pretty important for me to get back into shape. And I think it was that fear of losing sponsorship. 'cause we were still sponsored at the time and I was coaching and so I trained, I figured out how to train. [Sean] : What do you mean you figured it? Didn't you write a book on it? [Heather]: I did. [Sean] : I read [Heather]: my [Sean] : book. [Heather]: Trained for bouldering. A bouldering training is a little different than rock climbing. Okay. But, also post C-section, it was a different game. [Sean] : I bet. Yeah. [Heather]: it's learning it body again and it's different and I was still nursing and that was a complication. so anyway, nine months later, Mother's Day I was back to, I sent Tsunami [Sean] : nine months after giving birth to Fynn?!! [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Holy shit. [Heather]: Yeah, [Sean] : that's impressive. [Heather]: And it was Mother's Day. [Sean] : That's impressive. [Heather]: And I, that [Sean] : needs a little bit of core. [Heather]: It's neat. [Sean] : Which, needs a bit of a stomach, muscles where the C-section might have been. I have no doctor about it. [Heather]: It took me a while. Holy, it took me a while to get that back, but yeah. [Sean] : Good on you. Wow. [Heather]: Yeah. Wow. So that was, I was like, okay, I am back, I'm in shape and tsunami's right next door. I could go to it in morning it in the morning. It's convenient right when, [Sean] : Yeah, yeah. [Heather]: and I got lots of time in on it. And of course I had Nick to help. And then, [Sean] : and it's a low ball. It's a nice, problem to [Heather]: work on. [Sean] : yeah. [Heather]: Yeah. It's a good one. And it's sectioned, right? So you have the ease, you have a more technical section, and then a super burly section with a rest. So it was good, it was a good route to come back to. And then, Sonnie Trotter came to visit, and he, we went out to Chebucto first day, and we pull into that. We could still drive up to where the lighthouse is. Okay. And get out of the vehicle. And he looks out, and this whale breaches right in front. Oh. He's oh God, this is your climbing area. [Sean] : It's pretty darn good, eh? [Heather]: Yeah, it's pretty good. But while he was visiting us, we went to, Fynn, and I got on it. and it was the original start. Which is more to the left. [Sean] : Oh, has it changed? [Heather]: It's changed. And it, was like I couldn't lift my rear end off the ground. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna start this thing. [Sean] : Where does it start now? I thought you, you start on that rail and then you like shoot off to the right, don't you? [Heather]: Yeah. So there's this really big move in the beginning. Yeah. And I couldn't even lift my rear end up off the ground, but Sonnie was just like, oh, you gotta do this, you gotta do this route. This is your route. You gotta do this route. Yeah. Yeah. So then I started projecting it and I did it that summer. And a lot of people have, since it's been downgraded and all that jazz. Yeah. Yeah. Ben, the only thing that makes me feel good is Ben Smith looks, he goes, you did it in August. [Sean] : That adds a grade if it dropped, [Heather]: you did it in August, the grade doesn't go down. [Sean] : Very cool. [Heather]: Thank you. I'll take that. [Sean] : Yeah. so this is, this the same sea? This is later that season after you did Tsunami. s o you got that pretty quickly. [Heather]: It was just after Fynn turned one. [Sean] : Wow. [Heather]: I did that. [Sean] : Wow. [Heather]: And then, I did Gamey Bird in the Fall..., I started working on Gamey Bird and that took me till the next season. [Sean] : Interesting. Yeah. [Heather]: To do it. [Sean] : That sounds like a cool, I don't think I've ever seen, I, if I've seen that problem, it looks beautiful, but it's off limits now. 'cause it's private property, I believe. [Heather]: Yeah. Now it's on private property. Yeah. [Sean] : Which is a shame. [Heather]: It's gorgeous. The holds are sharp. Real, real sharp. And it's one of those ones, you got five tries and then you're bleeding. [Sean] : Oh, okay. Nevermind then. This doesn't sound very nice. [Heather]: when I finally sent it, I sat at the base looking at it, and you have to will yourself, this experience where you have to will yourself to put yourself in that much pain. And I sat there and I was like, I gave birth. I can do this. This is easy. This shit is easy. I can do this.That was hours of pain. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: This I can handle. [Sean] : And then that was the send go [Heather]: and that was the send go. and so that was a good send. [Sean] : that's an impressive, tick list there. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : And at that time, like Zig was reminding me about those, those sins and, that was, the hardest around here by far for a female climber and Yeah. Even in the country, I think that was right up there. Is that It was, is that your memory as well? [Heather]: Yeah, yeah. It was up there. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I think there'd been one or two other women who had climbed that grade in Canada. [Sean] : Wow. [Heather]: that we know of. Yeah. there could be other women that we don't know about who've done stuff like that. [Sean] : Yeah, of course. Yeah. [Heather]: but yeah. And then, you have a 2-year-old that on top. [Sean] : Yeah, absolutely. [Heather]: And then life gets busy. [Sean] : Yeah. And I have female friends that have commented on you doing that shortly after giving birth and have been super inspired by that. other mothers that are like, wow. [Heather]: Yeah, [Sean] : Heather kind of paved the way there, [Heather]: oh, it's nice to hear. it's, I would say having a child is a huge. I had never experienced anything that physically demanding, like pregnancy itself and then giving birth. My body had never had to do anything that hard. I, in many ways it was actually mentally helpful for me because I was like, oh, you, you can do hard things 'cause you've done hard things. so in that sense it was helpful. [Sean] : The mental game again. [Heather]: Yeah. I, yeah. That mental game, I suffer from a fair amount of self-doubt a lot of the time. And that was the beauty for me, the relationship I had with Nick, so much of it was because he believed in me. I believed in me. Sonnie Trotter, you can do this, you totally have to do this. Okay, I'll go do it. 'cause Sonnie said I could, that was I, was so gifted with people like that in my life and watching like Chris Sharma talking to Lynn Hill, I just remember this conversation. I can tell you exactly where we were and what we were doing. And she said, I just thought, you know what? We should just try it. And I was like, oh my God. I put so much thought into why you shouldn't tr do it, or what if you fail. And her attitude was just, I'm just gonna try it. [Sean] : Just try it. That's the hardest step, isn't it? Just take making that decision to [Heather]: Yeah, [Sean] : try to launch forward. [Heather]: And I would say that's the hardest thing for me about aging. [Sean] : explain that [Heather]: women go through a lot more changes than men do with aging. But for me, noticing the reduction in my physical strength. Things that used to be super easy. Like I've done a lot of house projects. I used to take a threequarter inch sheet of plywood off the top of the car. No problem. Now I'm like, oh, we might fall. [Sean] : This is the royal we? [Heather]: Might damage the vehicle here. and just knowing that I've changed physically that much, has really wreaked havoc with my confidence to try hard things. So I go to the gym. There was a year where I would go to the gym and climb, and every third time I climbed, I was injured, and I'd have to go to physio. And then I'm like, now I'm spending more time at physio than at the gym. And of course, it's because of the hormonal changes in my body. It doesn't, my, my joints are not as, Stable as they used to be. I have to work harder for stability. [Sean] : Yeah. I'm curious what, you were, what your advice would be for other female athletes, female climbers specifically, but you made the point about, your body changing through different stages and I was listening to a podcast, surfing, can't remember the woman's name, but she was talking about, it just struck me. She's talking about, a woman's body goes through an incredible amount of changes through, much more radical than a male's body through adolescence, like childbirth. Hello. [Heather]: Yes. [Sean] : And, menopause, perimenopause, all this stuff. It's [Heather]: yeah. [Sean] : Constantly changing. I don't know if that's relevant to what you might say, but what, is your advice? [Heather]: Listen, you know, as a coach my goal has always been to get people mentally in their body. So you under, you physically experience what's happening and you can tell that's bad pain. That's good pain. this is okay, this is not okay. one of the things you battle in a world where people are trying to monetize coaching, it's here's a training plan. a training plan should be a very personalized thing based on where you are, what your goals are, where you're trying to go, and how much time you have and what other things are you doing in your life. And. Yet we try to simplify and oh, here's the fix for the bandaid for everybody. And that's not the case. And so for me, the most, I loved yoga for the same reason. It's all about your own personal experience with posture. And that personal experience informs you of how you are and where you are at any given day or moment and what you can do, what you can expect, right? And so I think having that understanding, we spend so much time in our heads, right? We're looking at things on our phones, we're thinking about things we don't feel how our body is experiencing life. And so if we get into our bodies and we experience how our body is moving here, then we have much more information on whether we should try that move or not. [Sean] : So being in tune with your body and your mind is, so yoga was a path to that or can be a path for other, [Heather]: so when you go through a divorce and your ex-husband lives in a different country and you single parent and your five year, 6-year-old says, I got you mom. You don't take them bouldering with you or you don't climb on things you're gonna fall off of, [Sean] : squash your child. [Heather]: So I, I started doing yoga 'cause I could do it at home and he wouldn't get harmed in the process. [Sean] : Yoga is an non contact sport right? Mostly. [Heather]: And, there's so many similarities. Yeah. Between yoga and climbing? [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: Because the goal of yoga is not the depth of the posture. The goal of yoga is the experience of the posture to be in the experience. And when you're climbing your best, see what I did there? That was the name of my book. [Sean] : I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. I did. On sale now! [Heather]: Yeah. If you can find it. But when you're at your best, that's, what you're doing. You are experiencing the moment. You're in the moment. And that's the beauty of trad climbing, you're scaring yourself out of your mind. You are very in the moment. And so that's when you actually perform at your best. That's that flow state that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi talks about. It's, and that's what we all chase. You're chasing it in surfing [Sean] : indeed [Heather]: in that moment. [Sean] : Oh, I chase it in everything really. Yeah. Really. and, I would, just to interject, I did yoga, for a few years, back when I was the strongest climbing my performance was at its highest and I found a lot of parallels with yoga and that focus and awareness of weight distribution and, muscle engagement or something. I was amazed at how connected they were. It's a great way to supplement, climbing and, help helping [Heather]: performance. All physical. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: Yeah. It's, I still practice and I meditate and I, to me. Because I've been doing that for so long, it tells me where I am. It's oh, it's one of those days today, the check-in. [Sean] : Check in with your body and your mind. [Heather]: because that's another thing with aging as we age, the brain changes. Arthur C. Brooks has written a book on this from Strength to Strength it's called, and it's a great read, and it talks about our mental processing as we age. We actually are better at storytelling. Which is what you're doing. [Sean] : Yeah. Okay. [Heather]: Because we can bring together more complex ideas into a story. It's what my brain wants to do at this stage. It wants to write. [Sean] : Yeah. I guess that's the storytelling. I've noticed you've got a blog going. You've been doing that for a number of years. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Are you write quite often, it looks like every week or so. [Heather]: I try, I do. I do a lot of writing in my job. [Sean] : Okay. Like [Heather]: writing content for certification programs? For the climbing Wall Association. [Sean] : It's dry, writing? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Technical writing, probably [Heather]: Technical writing. And then, but I've always loved writing and now I blend these concepts that you come up against in the yoga world. Things like letting go. What does that mean, but I had my own practice of that when I was climbing hard routes. I would sit at the base and I would tell when I was coming back to this route to try again in the future to let go with pressure to do it today. [Sean] : Okay. That's a nice trick. [Heather]: So it was part of the letting go for me. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I was letting go of that anxiety of it has to happen today or that pressure and, putting it in a place of, no, this is just another day that we're going to the office and we're doing so many tries and this is how many tries. And by focusing that way, I could let go of that stress. So I think it's, I think, that's one of the reasons I find yoga so captivating because it works a lot with your mind and your perception of the world. And then how do you translate that into everyday experience? [Sean] : Are you getting inspiration for your blog writing through your yoga and meditation? Is that what [Heather]: I'm Yeah. And my life experience. Yeah. things that happen, things I read about. [Sean] : it seems like a journal in a way too. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : just getting your thoughts on paper and [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Processing some stuff. Maybe in sharing it. [Heather]: it, self, I told you self-doubt was a big thing for me. [Sean] : Yeah. Which surprises me in, a way. you just seem like such a confident woman in many ways. [Heather]: I just wrote this, one of the, I teach certified people as instructors. Yeah. And I hear this all the time from people. I wasn't sure I was ready to do this. I wasn't sure I had enough experience, And so I wrote an article on the imposter syndrome and it was published in a climbing business journal recently. And it's, that place we all sort of armor up. Feeling like we're a bit of an imposter showing up in the world. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I'm here talking to you and I'm like, who am I to be here talking to you? I haven't done anything significant. [Sean] : Oh, it's, that's not true at all. But I'm like, who am I to put this, podcast thing out. [Heather]: who's gonna listen to what I have to say? [Sean] : But it's like, who cares? I'm just going to, we're just gonna try. We're just gonna move forward. [Heather]: I will say, when you are a woman in a male dominated sport industry, and you're all of five foot, three and a half, there are times you feel unseen, unheard, undervalued. And so it does push back against your confidence in what you know. And certainly people have said things where they've questioned me. On, what I've accomplished or questioned my value, whether what I'm offering is a value. it's like I said this to you earlier....I was on a work call yesterday. I'm the only woman. There's 8 men, [Sean] : and you were leading the call [Heather]: and I'm leading the call and I somehow have to convince them to listen to me. You, always are trying to figure out how to show up in a way that they'll hear you. We go into that situation recognizing we are the only woman in the room. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the crag and I'm the only woman there, and it's a totally different experience for me than it is for the boys. [Sean] : But that's changed, hasn't it? the, boardroom that you're talking about is maybe slow to catch up, but we were talking earlier. What I think is so cool is that the amount of participation of women in our sport. Now, I, challenge you on you being the own only female at a crag these days. [Heather]: Oh, these days. These days I don't know if I would be, I'm curious actually. I know Statistics North America, it's about 50/50 male female in the gym participation. [Sean] : Which is awesome. Yeah. [Heather]: in terms of working in the industry, not many female route setters. There's been real push to try to improve that. in terms of coaching, I see a fair number of women, but not at the high performance level. So there's still a bit of a glass ceiling. I think on that level, in terms of how many women own gyms, again, small number culturally, things are changing a little bit. But I do think it's gonna take quite a while. And don't get me wrong. Men have, there's some real value in the way men think and the way that they engage in the world, and there's real value in the way women do. It's not the same. And that's okay. I don't think women should try to just be men, and I don't think men should try to be more like women. That's not what I'm saying. I think it's recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of both sides of the equation and then capitalizing on the best of both worlds. Without female perspective, you're missing out. And, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but if you think about how many routes that are established outside are put up by men And how many are put up by women that influences grading, that influences everything. [Sean] : Bolt positions, [Heather]: bolt positions. I've been on route where I cannot clip the bow from standing on the ledge like everybody else. And you gotta make a decision. I'm either gonna try harder than everybody else has to do this route, or I'm gonna walk away or I'm gonna get injured. I'm not blaming, I'm just saying perception is different. So if you actually took a human body and you measured arms and legs and then you said, okay, I'm gonna create a route where the holds are relatively. Distance apart from the center relative. [Sean] : Are we talking geometry here? [Heather]: Yeah, we're talking geometry and math. A man would go, oh, this route is this grade with my, this much extension. But for a woman, there's that much more extension. [Sean] : Yeah. And the grades mean different things too, right? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : grades are so fuzzy. [Heather]: Oh, [Sean] : and weird. [Heather]: Oh, it's so subjective [Sean] : anyway. [Heather]: So subjective. How can you actually know what the grade is? Because in your body it's gonna feel one way, but in somebody else's body it's gonna be totally different. Which is, why I find it annoying when people define your performance by grades. [Sean] : Given all your coaching experience, any top tips you would share with up and coming climbers? [Heather]: That's always gotta be fun. [Sean] : Yeah, [Heather]: it's gotta be fun. If you take the fun out of it. And I recently saw an athlete who did that, went and worked with a coach, got very good, is very good, performing super well, but not loving it. And I think, you could put as many medals on the wall as you want or as many trophies in the trophy case. But if you're not enjoying life, it's not worth it. It's not worth all the trophies. You can take all the routes you want, but if you're not enjoying the climbing, it's not worth ticking all the routes. So it's gotta be fun. It is, a big part of it. And then it's who? Who are you with? 'cause they're part of the fun. It's just such a gift. To see people who believe in possibility, who don't feel shut down when they can't do something right away instead, I've written about this so many times, but this is the epitome. Nick was doing this route in rifle. He was close. He goes up this thing, foothold breaks as he's clipping the chains and it's next level for him - 14b. The person who did the first ascent of this route is standing there watching him fall off this thing. Nick hits the end of the route and he's like: this route is so cool, I get to do it again. [Sean] : Oh, nice. [Heather]: And I'm like, how do I become like that? Because that is not what I would be saying. that is just that mental approach. That desire to be so in the joy of what you're doing, that even when you're totally challenged by it, you're positive. Yeah. [Sean] : The community here. Yeah. We started talking years ago and you first got into it and there's maybe just you and Will it kleiman and maybe a couple other people. It's grown a lot. [Heather]: Oh yeah. [Sean] : What, what are your reflections on how the community has changed and what it looks like now? [Heather]: I think it's fabulous that climbing has grown the way it has, like in the sense of so many more people have access to it and get to experience it. there are definitely things like I would hate if climbing lost that pristine. I'm out in nature. I'm having a fabulous experience in nature with one or two, three people. That's more my jam. I don't wanna go with 50 people anywhere. [Sean] : you're not a Boulderfest girl? [Heather]: No, I was never a Boulderfest girl. That's not true. I took the kids the first two years, I think but not, I'm much more about the experience of being in nature or being with the sport and, being engaged in the sport as opposed to that large group social event that happens. But I recognize that when you get this large of a community, you're gonna have events that get big. So there's a little less intimacy in it. And I would hate for us to lose some of that intimacy, some of that sharing. I also think because it's becoming so much more mainstream, people don't go to the gym with the same projecting perspective. They go climbing and it's I'm gonna do these things that are in my wheelhouse that I can do, and then I'm gonna leave as opposed to, [Sean] : and then put it on Instagram. [Heather]: Put it on Instagram, as opposed to, I am gonna try this thing until I bleed, and then I'm gonna get tape and I'm gonna try some more. I don't know how many people commit to a route like that anymore. [Sean] : I, think it is. I don't really. Not that connected, but [Heather]: I'm not talking to a lot of folks who are still at their project and want to project. [Sean] : Maybe it's a switch that needs to turn on? 'cause Samantha talks about that in our, chat about deciding to commit to projects and try hard and have bigger goals. So [Heather]: yeah, [Sean] : I think people come to that in their own time and I know what's happening out there. People are committed to their projects. And I think there's lots of space too. There's some group events that seem to be happening, which I think are cool to see as many people as there are out there. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : But there's tons of room, there's, yeah. For those nature experiences with a couple close friends. [Heather]: Yeah. And, there are definitely some events that I would go to for the support of the community. [Sean] : Yeah. I saw you commented on this online, I noticed, but, the Main Face Rendezvous. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : the, Benjamin's organized super fun. [Heather]: I would've gone, [Sean] : I couldn't believe the number of people there, Heather and I can just ...like you, were, you would've been wandering around the base of that cliff [Heather]: not getting any climbing done. [Sean] : I mean historically [Heather]: no. I talked too much. I, [Sean] : yeah. That's why we've been taping for two and a half hours!! But years ago you would be walking along the base, it would be just you and your partner. And on this particular day, there was at least 50 people Wow. And all different ages and, men and women and kids, and whatever - I thought was wonderful. [Heather]: Yeah, [Sean] : it was so neat. Some old, old friends that I haven't seen for ages and, new faces. It was really cool. [Heather]: So I do wanna ask you how many women to men, what was that ratio? [Sean] : Yeah, that, that's funny because it started out, we all met up and we're walking in and it was all dudes. It was all dudes and I'm like oh my God. And then, eventually, Samantha and Jody showed up. [Heather]: Oh, good. [Sean] : And I'm like, oh thank God this is not just a dude fest. And then it worked out - I would say, I don't know, there was a bunch of women showed up. I would say 66, 60 40? 60 40? [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Something like [Heather]: that. That's good. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: I did wanna go. I was traveling that day, so otherwise I would've gone. But I think, I think what they've done is amazing. I can't believe that. Climb Nova Scotia really needs to get back to giving out those things. It was on my agenda. [Sean] : Maybe it'll come to pass. What's, next for you? [Heather]: Living the dream. [Sean] : Continue living the dream. [Heather]: So these days, most of my climbing happens when I travel, actually - when I go to places like Salt Lake or Colorado, I don't go climbing here much. Most of it's, I don't have a partner. And so much of climbing for me has to be about the people. And I've backed myself into the corner. I don't blame anybody for that. But now that I don't work in a gym. So in 22 when I left the Rock Court. I didn't really think about this very well, and I was still coaching the kids, but the kids have become the people I go outside with. [Sean] : Awesome. Yeah. [Heather]: And now they're all graduated and theyre all off and moves away off at university. And so I don't go out climbing and it's weird. It's 'cause I don't have people that I would just call up and say, let's go climbing, [Sean] : Which is weird from having spent a lifetime [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : In the industry. But you said earlier you steered yourself away from [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : climbing around other people so [Heather]: yeah, [Sean] : maybe you put yourself in that corner. But [Heather]: I did and, then I'm, I say homeless because I don't have a gym that I [Sean] : Oh, I see. [Heather]: Like I don't have a membership at a gym. I don't have a gym I go to regularly. I just go occasionally. And if Fynn's in town, he and I will go. so I call myself homeless these days when it comes to climbing, and I try to stay in shape, but it's hard. So then you go out, it feels weird, feels awkward, but I, like one of the kids I coach was trying tsunami this year, so I was down at Tsunami, playing around on Nice. Yeah. Nowhere close to getting anywhere close to doing it. Yeah, but I was down with him, and another one and I went out to Crystal Crescent Bouldering. So it's, it's my fault. It, I don't have any climbing goals except for not to die. That's the big one. [Sean] : It's always a good goal. [Heather]: It's the big [Sean] : Well this could be your advertisement for seeking partners on this podcast: Seeking partners. Yeah. On this podcast. Give Heather a call. She's got lots of experience. I think. [Heather]: I've, I can hold a rope for sure. and then in terms of. I guess in terms of, do I dare say this in terms of like work or sharing, climbing with other people? I'm loving the fact that I get to work with coach committees and we put together ways to prepare coaches to go out there and be good coaches. Cool. I love that. So I'm very excited about that and I'm also excited to keep writing in my blog. I think, I enjoy writing. I don't know how many people read it, but for me it's, trying to provoke people to think and get curious about what's possible for them. That's what I love to do. That's my purpose in life. So that's what's next. [Sean] : There's some thoughtful stuff in there. It's good reading. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. [Heather]: Oh, thank you. Thank you for reading it. [Sean] : Yeah. I haven't read all of it, but I've read a few articles. [Heather]: Yeah, [Sean] : it's good. [Heather]: Yeah. [Sean] : Thanks for coming in to do this with me. I know it's a bit of a drive to come all the way over from Sambro. [Heather]: No problem. I again, see potential, wanna support the potential. [Sean] : I appreciate that. Thanks for the chat, Heather. If anyone needs a link to Heather's blog or wants further details on any of the Icebox episodes to date, please check out @iceboxsessions.ca. And as always, big thanks to Climb Nova Scotia, Unfiltered Brewing, Seven Bays Bouldering and East Peak Climbing Gym for supporting the podcast. I couldn't do it without you. Catch you all later. [Heather]: That makes the day when I go climbing with somebody. And they care how I do and what my performance is like, or what my experience is like. That's what climbing is for me, and likewise, I'm invested in their experience. I want us both to have a great day. That, to me, is the best climbing experience.