Episode 12 - Hana Transcript === Hana] : We climb because we love it, right? [Sean] : I think so. [Hana] : This should come with, like, a parental warning, but f*** rope climbing. Bouldering is the shit, and I still stand by that today. It's so fun, and I don't have literally any other hobbies. [Sean] : Hey, everybody. Welcome to another Icebox Session. My name is Sean Cassidy and we are in conversation with Nova Scotia rock climbers. Today's guest is Hana Ogasawara, who has inspired many with her passion and total commitment to a life of bouldering. Every winter for the past 10 years, Hana heads south to dirtbag across the cold desert in her unheated van, searching for yet another bouldering problem to obsess over. This was a fun, rambling discussion, and eventually, we end up talking about climbing. But just like my beer sponsor, Hana is entirely unfiltered, so grab a drink and hide the children. F-bombs will be dropping in the Icebox. [Hana] : I came prepared, though. I brought myself a beer [Sean] : With what? What do you got now? You got a beer? [Hana] : I brought myself a beer because I'm like, if I'm gonna talk about myself- ... for other people to listen to for freaking an hour, I'm gonna have to be- [Sean] : I, I offered you a beer ... [Hana] : just ever so slightly intoxicated. What did you bring? Just a light guy. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : An IPA would be a little much. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : I was actually gonna bring whiskey. [Sean] : Oh my God. And then Oh my God. So I said, I said, "Come on over. I got- all I got in the fridge is double IPAs. What do you drink?" [Hana] : Yeah, double IPA, I gotta drive. Yeah But, you know, a nice little light beer. [Sean] : Well, what did you say? You said, "I'm Japanese." [Hana] : Yeah, I'm Japanese. [Sean] : So I said, "All right, it'll, it'll be a Sapporo." I can't handle a Sapporo. [Hana] : And I said, "That's racist." But yeah, if I'm gonna f***ing talk about myself, I gotta have a little bit of a thing going. You got a shot gun there? I actually, for that, like, Patagonia little thing that my friends did f- for me- [Sean] : Oh, yeah [Hana] : or with me, but, like, very, very professional high-level production. [Sean] : Kind of like- Really big up ... kind of like this set up here. [Hana] : Kind of like this set up where we're sitting next to each other- ... and we're sharing one microphone. And I have to move from one side to the next. Who's ask- [Sean] : I'm gonna answer this question now. [Hana] : It's a highly choreographed interview. [Sean] : So it was, it was pro. [Hana] : And during that, I was like, "Okay, guys, I..." It's one thing audio, but, like, video interview when you're, like, looking at the ca- it's, like, rough. It's, like, hard. Yeah. So I'm like, "Guys, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drink some whiskey." Right. So I literally sat there drinking whiskey during- [Sean] : And did they cut that part out, or that was like- [Hana] : Yeah, you can see it. I thought, I hoped that would be in there, 'cause it's definitely part of Hana's persona, for sure. [Sean] : That's awesome. [Hana] : But I didn't, uh... Yeah, so I just brought- Huh ... a little beer today. [Sean] : Yeah, so you're pretty, uh, you're pretty famous. [Hana] : Pretty famous. [Sean] : Kind of a big deal. [Hana] : Yeah, some might say. [Sean] : You were almost, to be honest, you were almost my first guest. [Hana] : Yeah, had I said yes. [Sean] : Well, you did say yes, kind of. It was yes- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : once I get a car. [Hana] : Oh, okay. Right? Nice. [Sean] : Yeah. That was one of the excuses. [Hana] : I, yeah, I wanna know your side of the story, of the deep resistance from me. [Sean] : You don't think it was deep resistance? [Hana] : Uh, no, I was resisting greatly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was just... It's a lot, kind of. Yeah Right? And I feel like- It is ... and we were talking about this, like- Totally ... I think that it would be different if your podcast, and maybe it'll get to that point, but is being heard, like, nationally. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like, to a greater audience- [Sean] : Right ... [Hana] : then I'm just, like, a little bleep. But I feel like- [Sean] : You're kind of a big deal here ... [Hana] : I'm t- there, it's my pe- it's my, like, peers or, like, people at, will see me at the gym. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Or I'll be out climbing, and I'll be like, someone will be like, "You got this, Hana." And they're like, "Hana?" [Sean] : You're Hana? [Hana] : From the pod - and I'm... [Sean] : you were in the Icebox? [Hana] : I don't mind being- I'm, like, definitely a people person, but I don't- Yeah I think it's the perception of- It's you ... also, I think people think I'm a much better climber than I am because they know- Yeah ... who I am as a climber. [Sean] : Right. And you think that come- [Hana] : So they expect me to be really good, when I'm not. You're pretty good. They're just like, "Why are you falling off blues in the gym?" I'm like, " 'Cause climbing's hard." And, and, like, dynos are terrible. But yeah, anyway, I think my hesitancy was many things, but I feel like it's- [Sean] : Yeah. So what changed your mind then, or why did I finally wear you down? [Hana] : Um- [Sean] : And I wasn't trying to pester you. Like, I just- [Hana] : No, I did appreciate it ... I [Sean] : just, you know, I... Yeah, 'cause we don't know each other a lot. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : But I think we, we kind of, like, [Hana] : gelled a bit. [Sean] : We've always had a [Hana] : rapport. [Sean] : You know? Mm-hmm. A, a quick rapport. [Hana] : Yeah. Like, we had met probably once at, like, Mick and Sarah's. [Sean] : That's where I remember meeting you. [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [Sean] : Yeah. And then it was just trash talking. [Hana] : Yeah, exactly. Trash talking constantly. So immediately we're like, "Okay, Bulk Barn Invitational's coming up," and I was like, "f***ing let's pile on to Sean Cassidy." Yeah, [Sean] : yeah. [Hana] : I feel like I'm in that head space when I'm, like, in a particularly good mood, or I've had too much caffeine. Which [Sean] : is [Hana] : like- [Sean] : Which probably comes with the territory, right? Yeah. [Hana] : Working in a coffee shop. Of also working in a coffee shop. [Sean] : Well, that was one of my questions. Coffee. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : You're... Are you a barista? [Hana] : I am a barista, and I've been one now for, like... I've been at Weird Harbor for, like, nine years. One coffee shop for nine years. [Sean] : And you love the team and the place, obviously? [Hana] : Love the team, love the place, love the freedom that that job allows me to have. I think, like, I've never been, like, an overachiever. I work hard, and I like to do a job well, but I've never been someone who's, like, ambitious and overachieving in the sense that I, like, have ever put pressure on myself to do something that I don't wanna do for the sake of... I guess I always just question, like, why, w- why? [Sean] : I think that's awesome. [Hana] : So then as a result, I end up being like, I have a job that's really stressful and freaking me out, and I feel insecure, and I feel, you know, like I'm doing the job poorly, and I'm stressed all the time and working too many hours. Like, that's how it was when I was at Seven Bass. And then I was like two weeks off a year, you know? And I was like, "No." Like, it didn't last long for me to start questioning this and being like, despite the fact that there's so much pride or A sense of accomplishment- [Sean] : From, from working hard, you mean? ... [Hana] : wrapped up in that. Yeah. And w- [Sean] : Or do, taking on those roles [Hana] : and- Taking, doing, yeah, doing that- Yeah specific endeavor. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : It was pretty easy, honestly, to walk away 'cause I was just like- [Sean] : It wasn't, wasn't fi- fitting what you wanted to do. No. Yeah. [Hana] : Because- I think that's really cool ... it seems wild. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Really, like so many, we're just, like, everyone's just, like, content with having two weeks off a year? Mm. Mm-hmm. And like, or are they not content with it, but they've just never asked themselves whether that's what they want? [Sean] : Yeah, and I guess the challenge that comes with that is bringing enough in, enough income to support- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : the lifestyle that you want, whatever that might be, [Hana] : right? Yeah. I'm, I'm really f***ing cheap. [Sean] : I just got my opening quote for the, uh, podcast. [Hana] : Yeah, yeah. I am deeply frugal. [Sean] : Um- Oh, you've always been that way? Or, or once- Always ... you decided on this lifestyle that you wanna- [Hana] : No, always. Yeah. Like my parents- Big ... we didn't have, like, a ton of money- Yeah ... growing up, and I just learned that- Nice. [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : you like, yeah. I will say that I feel like in the last handful of years, I've really, like, tried to let myself be, like, freer with my money when it comes to, like, enjoying, like, food and drink. I feel like that's, like, the one avenue of my life that I'm kinda like, "f*** it. Let's like-" Mm-hmm. Friends wanna go out for a beer, friends wanna go out and have a picnic, like, I w- I'll almost never say nope. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : Um, but almost in every other aspect of my life, I'm, like, frugal as f***. Super [Sean] : frugal. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Also just, like, a, a w- a, just, like, a weirdo in the sense that, like, I'll, like, I've had the same, like, disposable plastic spoon for, like, a year. You know? [Sean] : Like, like a cheap-ass- [Hana] : Like a literal pla- ... white plastic, one of those like like, that you would get from, like, McDonald's. [Sean] : Wow. [Hana] : You know? Yeah, I, yeah, I don't know exactly what the motives are, but I think that, yeah, I feel like I don't need a lot of things, and I think it's very easy to get carried away. I think that's part of what allows me to be able to live my lifestyle is that, like- I haven't gotten carried away with, like, owning things or buying things or putting myself into a position where I'm, like, in debt or, yeah. Like, I moved to Nova Scotia, like, 12 years ago, and, like, three years ago I had a car for a year and a half, and then I sold it. But I found my bike. I also just acquire things. Which is kind of, I don't know. You just- From, from [Sean] : sympathe- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : sympathetic friends? [Hana] : I don't know [Sean] : if it's bad. Do you want- do you see anything here that you'd like to take home? [Hana] : I'm definitely not leaving empty-handed, for sure. [Sean] : No, no, you're ... And I'll- Yeah ... I'm gonna see it on Marketplace- Yeah ... like, tomorrow. [Hana] : Yeah. I'll be like, "What's that little..." No, I wouldn't sell it to make money. I'm not like that. I would just be like, "This small piece of, like, corner of steel that you have here from a leftover project, I bet that would be- come in handy in some point in my life." [Sean] : So okay. So you're reticent to come in here for those reasons about not maybe wanting to be perceived as something you're not, or be put up- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : above your peers in any way. [Hana] : Uh- I d- not above so much as just be- [Sean] : In the limelight ... [Hana] : yeah. It's not that I don't... Like, I have my Instagram. It's public. I like posting photos and videos. Yeah, that's a good example. Like, I'm not shy about sharing my lifestyle. Mm-hmm. It's not that. It's mostly just that I w- wanted there to be a built up resentment of ... of me s- me just fricking- [Sean] : There is no resentment just- There is no resentment. But I did, I did totally give up on it, uh, about, well- [Hana] : That's all it took ... [Sean] : about four days before you said- ... "I'm gonna come over." [Hana] : Okay. What did change my mind? I can't remember. Yeah, [Sean] : so that was my leading question. What did you- [Hana] : Yeah ... what's- Change my mind ... [Sean] : what's different? Or maybe nothing's different. [Hana] : I think- [Sean] : I just persevered long enough. [Hana] : Yeah, I think you persevered long enough Enough time had passed where I was like, "Okay, I have-" [Sean] : And a lot of your friends have been encouraging you, I think. [Hana] : Yes. [Sean] : I haven't... Uh, I don't think I've set any of them up- [Hana] : They all- ... [Sean] : to do that. Maybe one or two. [Hana] : Except for when you messaged my friend and said, "Tell Hana to go f*** herself," or whatever. That was incredible. And to hear it from Natasha was- So she did- ... incredible ... she did say that? She passed it on. Yeah. Oh. She passed it on. Bless her heart. I didn't say, "Go f*** yourself." [Sean] : What did I say? Yeah. What [Hana] : was it again? [Sean] : I said, "If you feel comfortable- [Hana] : If you- ... [Sean] : can you tell Hana, from me, "you suck?" [Hana] : "You suck." [Sean] : And she said, "Oh, I'll definitely give her that message." [Hana] : Oh, I got you. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : I got you. [Sean] : Yeah. I'll definitely do that. Okay. So you eventually came here. So it's answered. And- [Hana] : Here we are ... [Sean] : thank you. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Here we are. Well, tell us about Emily's film, Twenty Grit. What was that experience like? And that was you and Natasha. [Hana] : Me, Natasha, [Sean] : and Kennedy. [Hana] : And Kennedy. Yeah. [Sean] : Were the stars. [Hana] : Didn't know Kennedy beforehand, really. Had seen her around in the gym, was like, "Who the f***?" Them shoulders. [Sean] : Shoulders. Well, Emily was talking about her, Kennedy's biceps. Yeah. I haven't, I haven't seen her in person yet. [Hana] : She's just [Sean] : jacked. [Hana] : Yeah. She's, like, really strong. Young and strong. [Sean] : Crusher. [Hana] : Bouncy. Like, she's, like, definitely, like, a more, like, explosive, powerful climber- Cool ... for sure. [Sean] : Cool. [Hana] : Um, but- Yeah, it was f- it was a fun time. The f- the filming, I've realized that the filming of the thing is fun 'cause I can be me, and I can be, uh, photogenic and charismatic [Sean] : Hamming it up [Hana] : Don't, don't wanna see it, though. Don't wanna see it, don't wanna hear it at the end. [Sean] : Right, so you never gonna- [Hana] : Doing the thing is fun ... [Sean] : you're never gonna listen to this podcast episode after you're done. [Hana] : That's correct. Doing the thing is fun 'cause it's just connecting with people, and I like connecting with people. Um- [Sean] : I get that [Hana] : Do you, like, hear yourself on the podcast and you're like, "Ohh"? [Sean] : It's not. I get tired of listening to myself. [Hana] : Probably when you're editing? [Sean] : Yo. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's not as bad- [Hana] : I'll do, I'll do [Sean] : a [Hana] : lot of heavy lifting on this podcast- You like- ... 'cause I can, I could just yammer. [Sean] : It's gonna be a lot of work. I can, I can tell right now. It's not horrible. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : You know, I thought I would hate my voice. Like, everybody kind of hates their own voice. [Hana] : Oh, yeah. [Sean] : And yeah, I hate, I hate parts of it. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : But I just like, "Okay, it's all right." [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : It's not that bad. But it does get tiring listening to it so much. So you mentioned there you moved here, like, 12 years ago. Uh, and like- [Hana] : Can you explain about that? [Sean] : Like, I'm, I'm... Part, part of this project is kind of fun 'cause I'm meeting, I'm chatting with some old friends- Yeah ... and meeting some new ones- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : and learning about what's going on out there, and there's so many people that have cropped up on the scene. [Hana] : Do you feel like you've been on, like, the outskirts of the climbing scene for the last couple years? [Sean] : Oh, definitely, [Hana] : yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah, [Hana] : yeah. Despite still being climbing and still- [Sean] : Yeah. No, it was kind of like a self-imposed- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : not exile, but just- Yeah ... doing my own thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, busy, busy with kids kind [Hana] : of. Yeah, [Sean] : yeah. I had this gym to climb in- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : and couldn't be bothered to go to Ground Zero sometimes. [Hana] : Yeah, yeah. And then you might- That makes sense 'cause I climbed at Ground Zero- [Sean] : Oh, [Hana] : okay ... for a few years. [Sean] : Oh, right. So we wouldn't quite- [Hana] : And I don't think we crossed paths. Yeah. Not that I would remember, honestly. I have a pretty bad memory for people's faces and names despite being in customer service. I'm bad with people, really great barista though. [Sean] : Yeah. Okay, well, let's go back. I had a coffee question. [Hana] : Oh. [Sean] : Is there secrets to making a great espresso? Sometimes I pull some good shots and- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : sometimes I don't. Do you get some crappy ones that come through, or is it pretty- [Hana] : Yeah, for sure ... [Sean] : consistent? [Hana] : But then, like, I am able to, like, identify what's wrong with it and why it pulled bad. Mostly honestly it's, it's like environmental factors. But yeah, sometimes you'll just be, like, pulling shots perfectly and it'll be like nice crema- Yeah ... looks great, and then you just have one shot that just, like, for t- like, three shots in a row are, like, f***ed, and you're like, "What has happened?" [Sean] : Right. Hmm. [Hana] : But honestly, I'm, like, not that into coffee. I'm not, like, a coffee nerd at all. Not that interested. [Sean] : And for your, what's your own drink? [Hana] : Hmm, I'm honestly a filter coffee gal. [Sean] : Oh, okay. [Hana] : I like a good filter coffee. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : Yeah, just black. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : It's just, like, a job, and I think- [Sean] : A flexible job ... [Hana] : a flexible job. And that's been, like, a thing that I've been, like, thinking about lately and, like, ranting to friends about and, like, having, like, hangs with like-minded thinkers and being like, I think it's the thing that I've, like, successfully done, and partly it's due to my circumstances and the fact that I'm, like, really lucky that I ha- don't have any, like, dependents or, like, my parents are, like, financially, like, looked after themselves. I don't need to care for them. Like, I, you know, I have a lot of things stacked in my favor in this way. But I think that it's really easy to, like, get caught up, we touched on this before, on, like, continuing to, like, ascend the corporate ladder or whatever to continue to get, like, more money, more promotions, more responsibility, and, like, continue to, like, work your way up in, like, some form of a career. Um, and the The ratio of, like, pay to stress- ... to time off is just f***ed, and I think that I've structured my life so that that pay to stress to time off structure is f***ing amazing. [Sean] : Oh, dude. [Hana] : And I think that that's a result of me very consciously making decisions to, like... I'm 42 this year. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : And I work full-time as a barista. You know what I mean? Like, there's not that many people, like, the average 41-year-old's deep in their career, some kind of something, achieving something. I'm not achieving shit. I'm working as a barista. It's fine. I'm not trying to, like, be g- move up in the world, in the coffee world. No interest. [Sean] : Right. Right. [Hana] : I, like, have s- have a s- such a sweet spot in terms of, like, how much money I make to how mu- I finish work, and I don't think about work. [Sean] : Oh, that's perfect. [Hana] : It's done, you know? [Sean] : So the most valuable thing in your life is time. [Hana] : Or maybe, maybe all of it. I think it's time, but also it's also money. Like, obviously I need money to do the thing. Like, i- i- if I was unemployed, that would not be beneficial, you know? [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : I think that, like, finding that, like, sweet spot of n- like, not getting too sucked into trying to get... I feel like so many of my friends and peers are s- so f***ing stressed from their jobs. All the time. [Sean] : And why? [Hana] : And why? [Sean] : The question is why. Yeah. [Hana] : And like, okay, you're making more, but you are f- you're driving yourself crazy. You're stressed all the time, and I think that, and this again comes from a p- position of, like, privilege that I'm able to, like, do- [Sean] : Understood, yeah ... [Hana] : do, like, don't have, like, anyone relying on me, but I've, like, very actively- [Sean] : And you're healthy worked- You're healthy, right? [Hana] : Yes, exactly. [Sean] : And there's not other- [Hana] : So many [Sean] : factors ... factors that could come at you. [Hana] : But within everything in my control, I've made it so that I have as little responsibility as possible. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And as a result, I feel like I'm able to, like, travel, you know, three to five or six months of the year and do it cheap as hell. It's not like I'm living in a life of luxury by any means. Yeah. I'm living in a 1993 van affectionately known as Plop. Has no heat Has- What? ... no air conditioning. In the winter, in Bishop, no heat. [Sean] : How do you keep warm? [Hana] : Just layers of clothing. [Sean] : Do you have a, do you have a propane, uh, stove- No ... you heat up the? [Hana] : W- I just use it for cooking, but, like, it's cold and uncomfortable. Damn. And it's f***ing awesome. And you love it. But it's so good. [Sean] : Wow. [Hana] : But I'm able to do that 'cause, like, I've just found, like, a job that values me and, like, what I do- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : and pays me a reasonable amount for it, given the amount of work I do. Like, I get paid very well for what I do, and then I don't... I walk away and I'm, the job is done. I ha- I know when I'm gonna work. Two years from now, I know what days I'm working, you know what I mean, what my hours are gonna be. It's crazy. It's so good. It's kind of insane. I [Sean] : love it. [Hana] : It's kind of insane. [Sean] : Well, I, I- [Hana] : I feel very lucky, for sure. [Sean] : I, it's, I think it's inspiring, you know, for... You've crafted a life that allows you to, in a way, being a perpetual climbing bum- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : sort of annually replenishing- Yeah ... and then going back out on the road and- Yeah ... and back to these beautiful places. And, you know, I, I get what you're saying about ambition for the sake of ambition or- Yeah it, it's, you start to wonder, like, why? [Hana] : Why? Just why? [Sean] : Why is this happening, right? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Is this worth taking on this much stress- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : for how much of- [Hana] : For what? [Sean] : How much time do I have left? [Hana] : For what purpose? And then y- okay, so you're making $200,000 a year. Like, you're saving for what? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And when are you gonna spend it? [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : You know? Like- [Sean] : Totally. Totally ... [Hana] : my lifestyle is predicated on doing it, like, s- precisely, you know what I mean? Like, my job, my apartment is, like, for years was, like, infested with rats. It's a absolute shit hole. It's, like, falling down. I f***ing love it, though. It's super cute apartment, but I endure the fact that it's, like, has zero insulation. It's freaking freezing in the winter, and likely I'm gone for most of the winter. Mm. So only me and my subletter. [Sean] : Freezing in your van- Yeah ... in, in the dead of night. [Hana] : Freezing, yeah. Either way, I'm gonna [Sean] : be cold. Yeah, it sounds, uh... Yeah, you're really throwing, throwing some water on the fire of this lifestyle. [Hana] : Yeah. It's not for everyone. [Sean] : Ooh, that's pretty tough. [Hana] : Yeah, it's not for everyone. [Sean] : Well, tell us, so how did you get into climbing, then? Because at my point a little while ago, a l- back in the conversation, it's like, okay- Yeah, I was off grid, I guess Mm-hmm ... and then ran, ran into you, and then, oh, she managed, uh, Seven Bays for a bit, I think, when the store first opened, or the gym first opened Gym first opened, [Hana] : yeah [Sean] : Were you a climber before you moved here 12 years ago, or did you get started here? [Hana] : I had found climbing in New Ze- I was living in New Zealand for a year- Oh, cool ... back in the day, 2010. Okay And I, like, went to a climbing gym on, like, a rainy day and was like, "This is fun" [Sean] : Hmm ... [Hana] : and kind of got into it there. Climbed in the gym a bit there, climbed a little bit outside, but I wouldn't say I was, like, hooked by any means. I was just like, "This is a nice activity to do." [Sean] : Introduced to it down in- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : New Zealand [Hana] : Dabbled. [Sean] : Yeah [Hana] : And then I feel like it was maybe like two years later that I came back, that I was in Halifax. Went to the dockyards. Ah. The old dockyards The dockyards. So, but tell [Sean] : people- [Hana] : The old, like, get there at 7:00 or 7:30- Yeah, to meet- but if you don't arrive at those times, you cannot arrive. [Sean] : Right. Who did you go... Who got you in there? You kind of had to kn- know someone who worked at the base. It was like- This is at the dockyards on the Halifax waterfront ... [Hana] : yeah, the military base. And how did it work? It was like you had to, like, you didn't have to know anyone, but you just had to, like, show up at a specific time at the front gate and then someone within the military, like within, had to be part of that group. Um, and they would meet you there. So like, everyone would ar- arrive independently, and they would had to be one person in the military that would escort everyone else onto the base. [Sean] : Yep [Hana] : That was it. That was like how it was like- [Sean] : So this was a roped... It was pretty high. Yeah. [Hana] : Top rope. Like, it's- I don't even remember how tall it was it would be higher than any walls around. Yeah. Oh, for sure [Sean] : Like, I don't know, 80 feet? [Hana] : Maybe something like that. [Sean] : I don't know. Tall. [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. Like, I didn't climb there terribly long. I wanna say, like, maybe, maybe less than a year or around a year, something like that, but I, like, loved it. So fun. And then somehow I started climbing at Dow, at the rock court, and then I was like, "Oh." [Sean] : Bouldering " [Hana] : f*** rope climbing." "Bouldering is the shit." And I still stand by that today. [Sean] : Yeah. Even though you're featured in, in Todd's guidebook. [Hana] : I know. [Sean] : Rope guidebook. [Hana] : I know. [Sean] : Uh, rope climbing. Yeah. I'm like, "Who the hell is this girl?" [Hana] : Just locked off, chalking up like a real- Oh, so cool ... rope climbing pro. [Sean] : So cool. At Chebucto Head, I think it was [Hana] : Just not knowing how to rest whatsoever. Yeah, at Chebucto. [Sean] : Uh- Yeah What were we talking about? Oh, yeah, Dockyard. Okay, so- [Hana] : Dockyards, [Sean] : Dalhousie ... then Dalhousie, and then- [Hana] : Met Ben Smith [Sean] : Aha [Hana] : And that was the genesis- And it went downhill from there of my outdoor climbing, yeah. It all, it all, it went pear-shaped. I wouldn't say downhill, but certainly pear-shaped. Um, yeah. Met, met Ben. He was a maniac. [Sean] : Did you climb outside much before that, or did Ben- No ... was, was Ben taking you outside? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : He, I don't know exactly. We never really talked about why I, maybe I asked him at one point, like maybe after my first year of going out on the road, it felt really significant that I was leaving Nova Scotia to go out into the world to Boulder, and I was like, had a heart-to-heart with him, you know? Right. And I was like, "Why?" Like, "What, why did you choose..." I was like a V0 cl- like I hadn't climbed outside. Like, "Why did you," um- [Sean] : It's 'cause of your bad attitude. [Hana] : It was 'cause of my bad attitude. And high tolerance for shenanigans. Uh, probably that. But also he kind of just said like, "I just saw that there was some potential." Yeah, so we started climbing outside together pretty right away. [Sean] : Was there, was Craig Stamp part of that crew at that time, or who was- [Hana] : Uh, he was... I don't, it was literally just me- Or who did you go out with? [Sean] : Just you and Ben? [Hana] : Just me and Ben. [Sean] : Oh, okay. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Okay. Where would you go? [Hana] : The first time we, you know, went out climbing, as far as I can remember, was Terrance Bay, RIP. He put me on a V0. I sent it. He was like, "Sick." He put me on a V1. I sent it. He's like, "Great." I think maybe the same day he put me on a V2, and I did like a full-on face mantle, like smeared my face and cheek into the rock to do a top out. [Sean] : Nice. [Hana] : And he just kept putting on me on harder and harder things. Like, we, I don't even think he told me what the grades were actually at the time, which was, I think was key. He was just like, "Do this thing." And I was like, "Yes, sir." [Sean] : And what was he, he was working on much harder things at that time? And- [Hana] : I can't remember ... [Sean] : he was just looking for a spotter or what? [Hana] : Grover was just, or not Grover. Terrance Bay was just one day, so I don't remember what he was working on then. But we spent a bunch of time at Chebucto, 'cause he was working on Fynnished Sit. [Sean] : Okay. Right. [Hana] : Or whatever that ended up being called. And I remember doing Adrenaline Junkie. Like quickly, like in a session. Yeah. [Sean] : Nice. [Hana] : And he was like, after we left, he was like, "That was sick. I shattered my ankle on that boulder." And I was like, "Sick." [Sean] : Interesting. [Hana] : "I'm glad you told me after I sent. Thank you for that. That was nice." [Sean] : So I, I got the first ascent of that one. No way. Did you know that? Yeah. And I didn't shatter my sh- he shattered his what? [Hana] : His ankle? Ankle, yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. So I was there alone with that, with that bouldering pad behind you. [Hana] : This incredible thing right here. [Sean] : Yeah. I had scrubbed it. It's gonna be- I worked it once with some friends, like, I don't know, a few weeks before or something. Uh-huh. And, uh, we were kind of falling off o- off the crux. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Um, so I was out there alone one day. I was gonna work on Tsunami, and I thought I'd go check out Adrenaline Junkie first. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : And- Got up to the crux, blew off of it, and the, the, the slope was, like, down-sloping down- Yeah ... a gully- [Hana] : Super down-sloping [Sean] : to the ocean, right? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : So I, I fell off of it. I spun around to face the ocean. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : And then somehow managed to land. [Hana] : Put your hand down. [Sean] : No, I landed in a surf stance on my bouldering pad called Buddy, and surfed it down, down the gully a little bit. I s- stayed on my feet more or less. [Hana] : Whoa. [Sean] : So then I- [Hana] : Now is the- Then I- origin story of your surfing career ... [Sean] : maybe. And then I got, I got back on it and sent it. [Hana] : Nice. [Sean] : Then I, then I thought, you know, I'm, I'm, like, full of piss and vinegar right now, so then I went over to- [Hana] : Yeah, you're feeling like hot shit ... [Sean] : thought, "Sho is the man," right? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Nobody's, nobody's around. Yeah. So I went over to Tsunami. [Hana] : Yep. [Sean] : And I thought, "Oh, I'll, I'll just warm up on, uh, Big Guy or whatever." Tall Guy. Tall Guy. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : And fell off that, missed my pad. [Hana] : Okay. [Sean] : Rolled my ankle. [Hana] : Oh, no. [Sean] : Oh, no. And I was ... So I c- uh ... Yeah, I had to put the Tsunami project on hold for a while. [Hana] : Oh, my God. Yeah. It's such a flat landing too. I know. The flattest and the most straight down. [Sean] : It's ... Yeah, it's the most- ... gym-like climbing you could ever have. So that was that spot. [Hana] : That's a funny story. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : That's great. I love that. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Yeah, Adrenaline Junkie, my first whatever that grade is. [Sean] : Mm, it's V6. I call it V6. I don't know. But, but, yeah. I- We'll check with, we'll check with Dave. [Hana] : I went ... My, my pyramid was not a pyramid. My pyramid was- Oh, come on ... my pyramid was a straight line. Wow. 'Cause it was just, I was climbing with Ben, and he was just like, "Try this, try this, try this," and I just kept trying harder and harder. [Sean] : But you must have been developed those skills at the rock court to be strong. [Hana] : I think my fingers were really strong. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : And- Yeah, yeah ... I think my, like, my ha- I just did, like- A lot of, like, manual labor as a kid [Sean] : Oh, okay. Yeah [Hana] : Um, and, like, through my teens, so I think I had- Yeah ... like unusually strong hands naturally. [Sean] : Did you play piano by chance? No. I used to play piano, and I always thought- [Hana] : And you feel like that helped? [Sean] : I think so. [Hana] : Yeah, I can see that. [Sean] : I always thought that in my head. Like the, um, the independence of the fingers. [Hana] : Yes. Yeah. [Sean] : And the, like, des- dexterity of your- Dexterity of it ... your hands and the small twitch muscles. So I'm always curious about if there's other, like- [Hana] : No, never played piano. Yeah. But I, yeah, just did, like, farming and, like, ma- like, just manual labor. Mm-hmm. [Sean] : Where'd you grow up? [Hana] : Baden, Ontario. [Sean] : Baden. Where the hell is that? [Hana] : It's a tiny little town in, like, in Mennonite, like a Bible Belt, basically. [Sean] : Oh, okay. [Hana] : Yeah. West of Kitchener-Waterloo- Okay ... in Ontario. But I, I think I had, like, okay upper body strength and finger strength for a girl. When I was, like, f- first starting, I feel like usually women have to develop that a little bit when they first start out. Mm. I feel like for a w- for a, for a girl, I, like, had pretty decent upper body and, um- [Sean] : Just from working ... [Hana] : just from working, yeah. [Sean] : Did you do other sports? [Hana] : Did carpentry and stuff like that. [Sean] : Were, were you athletic as a kid? [Hana] : Did a little bit of ba- the most was baseball. [Sean] : Okay [Hana] : Which really would have no- That's not, that's not a sport though, is it? translating. No, not exactly. [Sean] : Uh, okay, so you got strong with- [Hana] : With Ben ... [Sean] : and f- had fun pl- bouldering outside. Screw the ropes. [Hana] : It was crazy. You're a boulderer. Like, we... I just immediately projected. [Sean] : Why? [Hana] : Because- Because I was climbing with Ben. Right. Yeah. And it just was like he only proj- like, we would go out- [Sean] : This is funny [Hana] : and we would spend an entire session, and he wouldn't do a single move. So that would be, that was like my- [Sean] : To you, that was what bouldering was about. [Hana] : Yes. Yeah. So that was, like, my influence, was being like- Yeah ... "Okay, this is what we do, is we go out and we f- Just throw yourself at a move ... [Sean] : fricking gnash our teeth at a thing." Yeah. [Hana] : Yeah. And I think that that set me up- ... to try- [Sean] : For failure- Yeah ... for life. [Hana] : Set me up to do really well with failure. Which I think is- Yeah, [Sean] : it's, uh, yeah ... [Hana] : huge. [Sean] : Yeah, definitely. [Hana] : In bouldering, like, unless you just wanna plateau or not challenge yourself, but I think that you have to, like, try to climb things that are way too hard for you. Yeah. It's so fun. Maybe not for everyone, but I- Yeah ... really, really, really love projecting. Like, I got on Resurrection, like, when Ben was still around, like, probably in my second year of climbing outside. [Sean] : Crazy. [Hana] : And then, like, nine years later, I sent it. [Sean] : I saw. That was fairly recent, wasn't it? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Was it this fall? [Hana] : Last fall. [Sean] : Yeah, yeah. We, when we first met, I know you were working on it. Yeah. I think you'd been working on it f- like, crazy. Yeah. And I had played on it a little bit, uh, years before or something. Yeah. And I felt I was close, and we were talking about projecting it together. Yeah. Did we? And I was like, "Oh, you're gonna come back." But, uh, then you sent it, [Hana] : and I was like, "f***." I sent it. Yeah. Went ahead and sent it. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Lickety-split, just a quick nine years. [Sean] : Just, [Hana] : just, [Sean] : yeah. [Hana] : Just, uh, too quick for you. [Sean] : So we never, I don't think we ever- [Hana] : We never did ... [Sean] : got out to that one [Hana] : Did we go to Tsunami together? [Sean] : We did, yeah. [Hana] : And you showed me your f***ing bananas beta for the crux section. I was like, "That's how you did it?" Why did that even ha- how did that happen? [Sean] : Well, I don't, it might have been, I mean, were you working Tsunami? [Hana] : I've been working it since, like, season one of climbing. Oh, okay. With Ben. [Sean] : I'm, that's probably it. Yeah. You were, you were projecting it or something, and you were like, "Oh." [Hana] : Yeah. Basically, as soon as the bugs come, I'm like, "Well, I guess it's back to Resurrection." I'm not, like, passionate about Resur- Uh, back to Tsunami. Tsunami. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, yes. Yeah, right. [Sean] : It was Resurrection, Tsunami. [Hana] : I'm not, yeah. Resurrection, Tsunami. I'm, "I guess it's back to Tsunami." Yeah. It's not, like, a passion project of mine by any means, but it's kinda like, "Oh, the bugs are out, so it's time to go back to Tsunami and-" [Sean] : Right do a poor hang all the time. Yeah, I remember almost punching you in the face there with my... [Hana] : That's right. [Sean] : Remember, you were behind me, then all of a sudden I shoot this hand over. [Hana] : It was crazy. How do you do it again? Uh. You're in the double undercling, and you do something. You, like- [Sean] : You know, it was, like, I was, uh, most people, I'm su- they do, they don't do it that way, right? They, they have- [Hana] : I don't think so ... [Sean] : they have some kind of compression move in there. Yeah. I think because people are just so much stronger than I ever was. So it was just me finding a way- [Hana] : What was strong on you- It was like a- ... that you could do the way you did it? Fingers? [Sean] : Uh, a bit of fast twitch. Okay. And maybe, maybe fingers. [Hana] : Okay. [Sean] : Uh, in terms of catching- [Hana] : Okay ... [Sean] : stuff. [Hana] : I have to pee. [Sean] : Okay, great. And then I can get a beer. [Hana] : Great. [Sean] : So I thought of a question. Mm-hmm. I don't know if, we were sorta talking about, um- [Hana] : Projecting? [Sean] : Proj- projecting. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : And, and the style's kinda funny 'cause, uh, uh, you don't listen to the podcast, so you wouldn't know, but I had a chat with, uh, Todd Foster there a month ago. Mm. Or that, that, that was released. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : We had a awesome chat. Like, it's amazing to think of all the things we've done together over the years. Yeah. Even though we've never really, we've never done the same things. We've just kinda come and, come and gone here and there and done all kinds of things together. Yeah. But anyways, we talked about bouldering and the approach to bouldering. Mm-hmm. And this style of bouldering of- projecting, like, one move at a time. Mm-hmm. And we got, we were talking about you, actually- Oh, right ... when you came up, and then he's like, "Well, yeah, Ha- you know why Hana does that? 'Cause she learned it from Ben Smith." [Hana] : Yeah. 100%. [Sean] : When you brought that story up on your own, it was like- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : exactly that. [Hana] : It, yeah. It's an interesting experience. It's really rewarding. [Sean] : Okay, yeah, tell, why is it, why is it rewarding? Where does the rewards come? And does it only come at the end? When is the end? Is there an end? [Hana] : Just, it just gets totally metaphysical and ethereal, and we're just like- what even is cli- what is it to climb? [Sean] : Welcome to the six-hour episode. [Hana] : Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We went a little long on this one. Yeah, [Sean] : yeah. Stay with us, folks. [Hana] : Stay with us. Uh, after the second break, we took mushrooms. [Sean] : This is gonna take forever. [Hana] : This is gonna be great. This is gonna be great. This is gonna be the best. Long-winded- [Sean] : It's gonna be the [Hana] : best ever ... ranting, ranting answers. [Sean] : Um, okay, projecting. Um. What's the reward in projecting? [Hana] : Like, my- One move at a time ... favorite sessions on a climb are, like, the first handful. Like- [Sean] : Not in year nine ... [Hana] : not in year nine. You're getting, it gets a little- Not when I know I can do it. [Sean] : Oh, yeah. [Hana] : My favorite sessions are, like, it's the same way that I feel like you can appreciate... Maybe it's different, but, like, you know how when you first start climbing, you're like, "I'm amazing." I can, every session you improve. Oh, yeah. And you think- [Sean] : Right ... "My [Hana] : God, I, I might be the next, you know, Adam Ondra." Because when you first start climbing, your progress is, like, incredible, and, like- Yeah ... the things you achieve within that first, like, year of climbing, you're like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. [Sean] : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [Hana] : And I feel like that same, like, thing that your brain is doing, where you're r- like, you have a real immediate reward. [Sean] : Yeah, dopamine hit. [Hana] : I feel like those first handful of sessions are like that, and, like, drawn out, for sure, 'cause I, if I'm getting onto something that's hard, like, for me, that would be, like, say, like, a seven or an eight or a nine or something. I'm not necessarily gonna do all the moves in one session, but, like- [Sean] : You can make some progress each time. [Hana] : The, yeah. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And, like, those, that progress that you feel is- Yeah ... like, so rewarding, and, like, the moment I'm like, "I've got all the moves. I know how to do them. It's dialed. I can just do this-" Yeah ... that's when the enjoyment honestly dips for me. [Sean] : I get it. Is it the pressure that comes along with it? What is it? I mean, I feel exactly the same way, but I don't know. [Hana] : I don't really know what it is. It's, yeah, it's gotta be pressure that you're putting on yourself to do the thing. [Sean] : Or expectation- But it's- Or expectation externally because others would know- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : you can do, you've figured it all out, so why, Hana, why don't you just send the damn thing? You're going to Resurrection [Hana] : again? Again? Year eight? [Sean] : What's wrong with [Hana] : you? How do you still have friends? All of them have sent, and they're, you're just still dragging your friends- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : out to this f***ing thing. Um, I don't know why it becomes... Might be some slightly external. I feel like it's less that for me. I would say it's more because we climb because we love it, right? [Sean] : I think so. [Hana] : I think. [Sean] : Why do we climb? [Hana] : I think that because we love climbing- [Sean] : We love climbing. That's right ... [Hana] : and, like, for me at least, the enjoyment is pretty important. So- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : my, like- Yeah. Okay ... the level of enjoyment I get out of, like, accomplishing moves or feeling progress within a pr- within a climb is extremely high. So, like, those first sessions where I'm feeling like I'm understanding it, even if I don't do a f***ing move the whole time, if I'm, like, go from being like, "Oh, if I just put weight into my right toe and pull with it- [Sean] : Mm ... [Hana] : then I can move right- [Sean] : Mm-hmm ... [Hana] : instead of just going up," and, like, unlocking that feeling- Just that understanding of that one move and having, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, like- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : having climbed long enough to be able to, like, figure that out for myself is so rewarding for me. [Sean] : What a stupid thing, right? [Hana] : It's unbelievable. [Sean] : It's completely stupid. It's unbelievable. [Hana] : And then- As soon as I know I can send, it's like, okay, it's sending time. There's nothing left to figure out. [Sean] : There's nothing left to learn. Yeah. [Hana] : And so then- [Sean] : Right ... [Hana] : because I don't enjoy that part of it m- as much- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : therefore I don't enjoy it as much. And I think that, like, that's the th- it's, like, maybe less about e- external, internal pressure so much as just, like- Yeah, yeah, enjoyment it's the part of climbing that's just less- Y- ... enjoyable to me because, yeah, it's a culmination of all the things you've learned and all the progress you made to be able to send the thing. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : But it's not... It doesn't give me the same- [Sean] : Yeah, satisfaction and- ... [Hana] : satisfaction- ... reward ... as, like, being, like, just some micro beta bullshit where I go, "Oh my God." [Sean] : That's really cool. [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah. But I have lately started to derive enjoyment from, like, doing a thing quickly, like doing a thing in, like, one or two burns. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : Partly because I'm broken right now, and I'm like, "Okay, I can't. I should-" [Sean] : You need to do easier things that you can do quicker. Yeah. Yeah. [Hana] : Go out to Grover and be like, "Oh man, I could do these threes," and, like, like, how quickly can I figure out that beta? Right, right, right. And, like, it's just, like, a shortened timeline of the same feeling. [Sean] : Yeah. And yet I'm still going back to your kind of, like, one move progress of, like- Yeah ... shifting a heel or whatever. It's like, it's like micro, it's just like micro progress. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : But you can- [Hana] : But it's so cool ... [Sean] : appreciate it. [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. [Sean] : Huh. [Hana] : I feel like there's- And it's interesting, too, when you live he- so I live here, Nova Scotia. I go to things regularly. Yeah. And then I have stuff that's on the road- [Sean] : Right ... [Hana] : that are projects- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : that I only get to go back to. Like, I'll have climb- I'll have been away from it for nine months, and then I go back to it. [Sean] : Which is, well, unless- [Hana] : And that's a different thing, too ... [Sean] : do you forget the be- 'Cause- Do you forget the beta when you're away that long, or? [Hana] : Yeah. No. Well- You gotta relearn ... yeah. I'm not the best at, like, some people are really fastidious about recording everything, and, like, taking videos, and, like, making note of their beta, and, like, being like, "This, think about this, and this heel," and blah, blah, blah. I don't, I don't do any of that. I don't track my sends anywhere. I don't- [Sean] : Okay ... [Hana] : none of it. The other day, [Sean] : someone was- You don't even take notes on your, your cli- like, when you make those progress on your- [Hana] : No ... [Sean] : heel, heel switch, whatever? [Hana] : No. [Sean] : And so you go back to it in nine months. [Hana] : And I have to figure it out all over again. [Sean] : Oh, dude. You get to enjoy it all over again. [Hana] : I get to enjoy that process all over again. [Sean] : Damn, that is, like, endless fun. [Hana] : I know. So inefficient. That little boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. But boy, is it fun. Which is funny, 'cause I do love efficiency, and I am particular, and that's why my friends say that I'm particular. Yeah. [Sean] : So one of the, one of the schticks on my, my show here- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : is I have previous guests, I ask if they have any questions for my current guest. [Hana] : I didn't know that. That's so cute. It's kind of fun. Okay. [Sean] : So Todd, um- [Hana] : Todd the Bod. [Sean] : Todd the Bod. [Hana] : Go on. [Sean] : He, he kind of, it was about this sort, sort of whole project thing- [Hana] : Mm-hmm [Sean] : thing, and he had noticed, it appears to him- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : that you like to work beta to perfection to get a send ra- rather than just get a scrappy send of something to get a tick. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : He, I don't know, I don't know if he's seen this in action or if you can agree with it or not, but it sounds- Mm-hmm ... like you will really try to refine the beta or make it flow or... Is, is that accurate what he's saying? I [Hana] : definitely know what he's talking about. Hmm. I think that that's kind of a recent development. [Sean] : Oh. [Hana] : First, like- [Sean] : Huh ... [Hana] : eight years of climbing, I feel like I was scrappy as f***. Like, my asset was try hard. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : That's a good asset. I would just try so hard on everything. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And I climbed like shit. I was bad at climbing. I was, like, not naturally gifted in terms of, like, movement and understanding of climbing. I just, like, tried so hard. I would, like, hit a hold bad and I would just keep holding [Sean] : Screaming. Yeah Were you a screamer? [Hana] : Early days, no. Despite the fact that I tried harder in my first eight years of climbing, I was like, "Meep, boop." [Sean] : Was Ben- Just making these weird tricky sounds ... would Ben, uh, scream? Is he a scream guy? I don't [Hana] : really remember. [Sean] : Yeah. I tend to yell. It's kind of like there's... Chris Sharma used to do that a lot. [Hana] : Mm. Mm-hmm. [Sean] : But it's effective for weak people 'cause it engages- Well, [Hana] : yeah ... the [Sean] : core, right? [Hana] : No, I started doing it, but, like, to answer that, it's like early days, like for my first, like, eight years of climbing, did no training, did no real, like, cl- not a h- heck of a lot of climbing inside. We [Sean] : don't do any training here. This is- [Hana] : No ... you're [Sean] : in good company. [Hana] : No. And I think that I used to be scrappy as hell. [Sean] : Right [Hana] : Try hard. Watch... I would watch videos of myself, I'm like, "By God, I suck at climbing." "Sure sent the thing." [Sean] : Somebody should tell you. [Hana] : But boy am I ever bad at climbing. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : Just- Interesting so scrappy. Yeah So much effort, just bad movement. [Sean] : Super inefficient. [Hana] : Sh- weak-ass shoulders, strong fingers- [Sean] : Okay ... [Hana] : but could send shit. And then I feel like at some point I watched myself climb and I thought, "I wanna change that." [Sean] : Can I ask you what sort of level you were climbing at, at that stage? Like, you were- Like, [Hana] : V5s [Sean] : already you were thr- you were thrutching yourself up V5s. [Hana] : Yeah. Okay Like V5s and V6s. And then at some point I was like, "I don't want to climb like that." Partly because I was getting... like, my fingers were getting f***ed up. Like, my s- third season in Bishop, I came back with seven finger injuries. [Sean] : Oh my God. ' [Hana] : Cause I would just, like, I would just go, go for things, and then just, like, h- just hold on. Yeah. [Sean] : We all, um, get wiser eventually. We do. I used to snap a lot of tendons. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : You just, you just keep f***ing trying, right? You [Hana] : just keep trying. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And then I think it wasn't really... The turning point was, like, th- was, like, three years ago probably Where I had like, my right shoulder had been so f***ed up for so long, like three years, where like at this point I like couldn't lift my hand over my head or straighten my arm above my head. I l- couldn't like, if I was lying on my back, I couldn't like reach to my left shoulder- ... and pick up a pen that was next to my shoulder. Right. Like, it was ba- I had need to get like help getting out of like, if it was a sweater was like too fitted, I like couldn't get out of it. I couldn't like put my jacket on. [Sean] : But you could still climb? [Hana] : You could still climb? Yeah, because when- So that's- ... I'm climbing I'm just like, I'm so locked in. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : There's nothing. Like, it would ha- it would take so much pain for me to not, for it to distract me from the- Right ... the thing that I'm doing at the time. But taking a sweater off? No. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Just crying. Just being like, "Help!" Help me [Sean] : in. I need help! It's like a V10 sweater. Yeah. So then I had to get real busted up, I think, to get to the point where I s- for there was like a solid year where I, for the first time ever, had like a real lull in my psych for climbing. Mm. [Hana] : Like, genuinely every time I went out climbing, I came back like pissed. Like sad, pissed, felt shitty about myself. Bad time. [Sean] : Because you were underperform- For like a year ... because of underperformance or pain? [Hana] : Because I was underperforming. I just suddenly became the shittiest climber, and I couldn't put it together, and I was so mad at myself, and I was like- Oh, man ... what is happening? That's a- Just hated it. [Sean] : Huh. [Hana] : For like a year. First year in Hueco. I was like, "This place fu- sucks and I suck at climbing." [Sean] : Oh. [Hana] : Terrible time. Bad mindset. That's an awful place. Went to a really bad place mentally in terms of my climbing, and just like, but like couldn't execute. I went to like, um, uh, what's that delightful V2 at Nouveau Riche that goes right up the center next to Dynamitis? Couldn't do it. Just couldn't. It like became a project, and I was like, "What is happening?" And I talked to my buddy Steven- Mm-hmm ... who does The Nugget. [Sean] : Yep. Steve Dimmitt? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Dimmitt. [Hana] : And he... I was like, "I wanna get a per- Like, I, I want something to change. Like, something needs to change. I either need to just, like, f- say, 'f*** it. I'm done with climbing,' 'cause I'm not having fun doing this anymore, and if I'm not having fun, what's the point? Or I need to, like, see a sports psychologist, get a personal trainer, and get a physiotherapist, and literally get, like, a team" A team. [Sean] : Hana's team. [Hana] : A team of people together- [Sean] : That don't wanna get paid- [Hana] : to rebuild- They don't wanna [Sean] : get paid anything, 'cause you- [Hana] : Yeah, exactly. I'll pay them in kindness- ... and, like, compliments. [Sean] : Do you want another smile? [Hana] : Yeah, exactly. Maybe not compliments. I'm not the best at that. I'll, I'll... Backhanded compliments. [Sean] : Mm. Yeah. [Hana] : I'll pay them in backhanded compliments. Yeah. Um, and I was like, "I need a team," and he was like, "Or..." And then he suggested- [Sean] : Oh, he had another solution? [Hana] : Okay ... my guy. [Sean] : Well, who's your guy? [Hana] : His name is Matt Halliger. [Sean] : Matt Halliger. [Hana] : I'm not even sure if I'm saying his name right, but his name's Matt Halliger, and he's my physical therapist. [Sean] : Okay. Is he a local guy? [Hana] : No, he lives in Montana. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : But he's a physical therapist, climber for years. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Extremely good at what he does. And Steven was like, "He's your guy." And so I got back, like, three... Has it been three years now? Like, busted. So much stuff in my body was, like, just so not working well. And I realized that, like, probably what was happening is that I don't hate climbing. It's probably just that, like, my body, there's so many limitations on what I can do in any given move because my body is just so f***ed up. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : From years of being, like, slightly injured and then continuing to climb on it for, like, the next three years, to the point where then it became, like, a pretty severe problem. And then, yeah, I started working with him, like, three years ago, and I was... It was pretty funny talking to him, 'cause I was like, I was, like, pretty busted and, like, pretty weak, and he was like, "All right." He's like, "Let's start from the beginning." [Sean] : So you've, you saw this guy in person? [Hana] : No, never met him. [Sean] : What? [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : How is that possible? [Hana] : He's... He works... He does mostly, like, most of his clients are r- remote. He worked, um, out of a clinic for years and years, and has a ton of experience, and is just, like, so good at what he does. [Sean] : And he specializes in climbers, so he- Yeah ... kinda knows [Hana] : all- He's just been treating climbers- He knows all the things that are happening to a [Sean] : climber ... [Hana] : in Montana for, for years and years. Yeah. [Sean] : Huh. [Hana] : Unbelievable. The results were freaking crazy. Wow. I went from being, like, busted and, like, feeling like I probably won't be psyched on climbing again, 'cause I was so, like... Just, like, things were not working the way they were meant to be, and I was, like, in chronic pain in, like, four different places of my body, you know? And then worked with him for, like, nine months, and I was, like, went from having... Well, I've had chronic back pain since I was a teenager. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : Gone. For the first time ever. [Sean] : Was it exas- Was the back pain exasperated by climbing, or that was just a- Mm ... underlying, underlying issue that you were always dealing with? [Hana] : It was just there always. [Sean] : Right. Yeah. Okay. So he fixed that. [Hana] : I fixed it, based on what he suggested I do. [Sean] : Okay. Okay. But [Hana] : he's like, "Do this shit." [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Like, "And stick with it." It was insane. The progress was like boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop. I had to go hardcore. I had to be, like, in, doing something. Like, I was at the gym, like, five days a week. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : It was like, really had to dedicate myself to doing it. [Sean] : Wow. [Hana] : And then that was sick, because I came back and, and then I was just, like, at baseline, you know? After nine months, I was like, "Okay, now I don't have pain and I can climb again, but my body is still not, like, a, a strong body." But the goal was always for me, the reason he, he- I was attracted to his pitch- [Sean] : Mm-hmm ... [Hana] : was that his pitch is, like, resilience and, like, longevity. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : It's not about, like, coming back from an injury and dropping it, or coming and just, like, buil- like, building strength and getting huge and getting strong- Mm-hmm and sending hard shit. [Sean] : Resilience. [Hana] : Yeah. And that's, like, never been my, like, focus. It's just been, like, I just wanna keep f***ing climbing, 'cause I f***ing love it. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah. So cool. [Hana] : Two swears in one sentence. [Sean] : That's all right. I'm, I'm warming up for when we get Smizzil on here. [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [Sean] : Yeah. Uh, that's so good. Like, it's funny, like, you haven't even heard these episodes, but a lot of the chats kind of verge into training a little bit. Mm-hmm. It's not like Steve, Steve Dymitt's, uh, Nugget Podcast. I mean, I think his thing's all about- [Hana] : Yeah, he's [Sean] : really- ... a lot about training ... he's obsessed with it ... right? Yeah. Yeah. So the kinda funny theme of it is, like, I don't do much- Yeah or any training. Yeah. You know, I don't really understand it. Yeah. And, but, you know, we, a lot of people have different approaches. Yeah. And a lot of people are using it exactly like you're saying. Yeah. And this is why I wanna use it- Mm-hmm ... get into it, is for resilience. Yeah. I mean, me- I'm well past my prime- Yeah but I still wanna keep doing this stuff. Yeah. And I break down a bit too easily, right? Yeah. Shoulders, mostly. [Hana] : Yeah. And [Sean] : well, ribs if I- [Hana] : Yeah, if he goes ... [Sean] : get hit run into things. [Hana] : Blunt force trauma. [Sean] : Uh, so yeah. I mean, it's im- it's important, right? [Hana] : It's crazy. I was like, the... When I started seeing him, I was- To, just before I had turned 39, I think, and I was like, "If I were to say that there was one goal from, like, working with you is that I want the year that I'm 40 to be the m- my strongest year." [Sean] : Mm. [Hana] : And I was- [Sean] : One year away ... [Hana] : absolutely executed that. Like- Damn ... 40 was my strongest year of climbing, but just, like, physically fit and, like- [Sean] : Just crushing it. [Hana] : Yeah. I didn't change anything about my diet. I just, like, listened to him and just did the work. And it was- So do you keep [Sean] : that work [Hana] : up? ... very hard for me because I'm not a disciplined person. As I told you before, I'm an underachiever, and so I- I feel like that- Yeah ... falls into- You [Sean] : are and you aren't. It's kind of a weird dichotomy there, [Hana] : I think. It is a bit. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : But it has to be motivated by a very specific thing. I can't just be like, "I wanna be better at climbing," and then I'll just do things to get strong. Like, I don't enjoy working out, so I'm not, like, gonna do it just 'cause, so that I, like, set some random objective of sending V10 or something like that. Like, I'm not gonna do it that way. For me, it was paying someone a large sum of money to tell me what to do and not wanna waste that money. [Sean] : Yeah. Right. [Hana] : For me- Right. This is where- I know myself ... your fruitfulness [Sean] : comes in. Yeah. [Hana] : Yeah, and I- Interesting ... like, if someone w- if I was like, "Hey," like, I have a friend that's a personal trainer, I could've been like, "Hey" Yeah ... "can you give me a training program?" And she would've given- Yeah ... me one. Yeah. Wouldn't have done it. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : Would not have gotten better, would not have gotten as strong as I am because- [Sean] : You weren't committed. You weren't [Hana] : invested ... I was. You were invested in- And he was invested in me. Like, he is so f***ing good. [Sean] : Huh. [Hana] : He, like, gives me the time, and he's like... I've never had a physical therapist that even remotely felt like they were invested in me getting better, which is why I'm, like, going elsewhere for the care that I feel like I want and I need. He's amazing. [Sean] : That's incredible. Um, so let's, uh, let's talk a bit about your travels. Like, you mentioned you've designed a lifestyle- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : and a career- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : and a financial plan- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : to support that goal of spending a lot of time on the road. You s- said, like, what, three to five s- between three and six months a year? Yeah. To be fair. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Um- [Hana] : For- 10 years now [Sean] : You've been doing that for 10 years? [Hana] : Yeah, 10 seasons on the road. [Sean] : And I think when I first got to know you, which wasn't that, that long ago, but I think you were primarily going to Bishop. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : Uh, that was kind of a home base for you, and maybe- [Hana] : Yeah, big time [Sean] : sounds like lately- In Utah ... it was Hueco. And [Hana] : now it's like, yeah, Hueco is- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : a huge part of the- [Sean] : So tell- ... [Hana] : circuit ... [Sean] : what's the draw to that part of the world? And I mean, would you say 10 years of doing that, like, what are- [Hana] : Hmm ... [Sean] : how, how would you paint, paint a picture for us of what that looks like for you- It's- every year? [Hana] : Well, it- I wouldn't say it's necessarily a draw to that side of the world so much as it's purely logistically feasible. Like, having- [Sean] : Climate ... [Hana] : climate. Yeah. It's the season- Yeah ... where I can be not here and climb where it's cold enough to climb, but hot enough to climb. Um, and there's so many people just doing that same kind of circuit. Yeah. Like, between California, and Utah, and Nevada, and Texas, where it's, like, ideal temps for climbing. But- What was the question? Kind of just paint a picture of what that looks like? Just, yeah, like [Sean] : what's a typical year for you or- Yeah ... a season down there, and, and has that changed over the, over the decade? Oh, man. [Hana] : Yeah, it's definitely, like, just a, a, what seems feasible and practical because, like, if I were to go interna- Like, the way I have it set up now is basically I have a van that I own that I keep down there. So every year I literally just fly to my van that has my bed in it, my bedding, my camp stuff, my stove, my cookware, everything. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : And I just, like, land and I'm good to go. [Sean] : Where is this stashed? Which- What, what is your home base there for- [Hana] : There's not... It's changed- Doesn't matter. Wherever ... over the years. It's been, like, Bishop. It's been Salt Lake City, Leavenworth. But it's, like, really the only way for me to feasibly do it in, with the financial budget that I have. Like, I have my, my vehicle and my accommodation taken care of. In one. Yeah. I couldn't do three months in Europe staying at an Airbnb or, like, renting a van. Like, it just wouldn't be possible. So it really is, like, the place that makes sense given that I have my winters off, and that I can have a vehicle that I live and, and, and move, move through the States in. It's basically, yeah, I fly in. The last handful of years it's been in Vegas with a friend who's very generously offered me their driveway to, like, let me park for free. Yeah. And I fly in. And, like, from there, like Vegas, it's like s- four and a half hours to Bishop or, like, 10 and a half-ish to Hueco Tanks. Um- [Sean] : You're an easy shot of a lot of- [Hana] : Yeah [Sean] : a lot of cool spots. [Hana] : Yeah. There's so much there. There's so much- Not even that [Sean] : far from, uh- ... good climbing ... not even that far from the valley. Yo- No ... Yosemite. Even though [Hana] : you've not been there yet. The downside of the valley is that during that time of the year- Yeah, that's true ... the mountain passes are- That's true, yeah are not passable. Yeah. So it would take me a long time to get there 'cause I have to go the- Yeah ... long way around. I forgot about [Sean] : that. I see. [Hana] : My first time on the road I had quit Seven Bays. I had- Met this guy in the spring before I quit Seven Bays. I had met this guy on a climbing trip who lived in his van and full-time for the last, like, 12 years- [Sean] : Mm-hmm [Hana] : in this tiny, like, '84 Vanagon. He had like four T-shirts to his name and, like, a pair of shorts, you know? [Sean] : Not as nice as mine. [Hana] : Not as nice as yours, no. Yeah. And, uh, and I was like, "Oh, shit. Like, this, this is an option." [Sean] : Oh, he inspired the, the- [Hana] : Yes ... yeah, right, right And I think that part of my lifestyle, like even at home before I did van life and now still, like I don't do my regular life that dissimilarly to van life. I have like... Well, I've lost a few spoons along the way, but at one point I had like four spoons and four forks and, like, just everything I- [Sean] : That's three more than necessary ... [Hana] : exact- Yeah, I know, right? I have friends, you know? I sometimes have people over- It's not like- ... and they sometimes use spoons. Just have a little soup party. I have- [Sean] : So this guy you met only had one spoon. [Hana] : W- Just one spoon. One spoon. And you're like- Even... I think he had two ... and you're like, " [Sean] : Whoa." [Hana] : I think he had two. Next level. And he was like, "Oh, you trying to impress me?" Uh- Mm-hmm ... yeah, he was the most unique person I've ever met still to this day, even though I've been on the road now for 10 years or whatever, [Sean] : but- Interesting. What's, you rem- what's his name? [Hana] : Steve Hordley. [Sean] : Steve Hordley. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Shout out to Steve Hordley. [Hana] : Shout out to Steve Hordley. [Sean] : I'm sure he's listening. [Hana] : Absolutely he's not. Um, and I was like, "Okay, this is a thing, and it seems dreamy as f***." I came home and, like, completely exploded my life, and then like six months later I was on the road myself. [Sean] : Interesting. [Hana] : And then- [Sean] : Which is, like, two or three years into climbing, right? [Hana] : Not, not- Uh, yeah, not that- Yeah ... many years into climbing, yeah Um, I just was in. I was, like, in, you know? And then I flew into Vegas and I... He picked me up and we went to the campground. Uh, it was late at night, and I, like, woke up in the morning and I was like, woke up to the, to the red rocks of, of Vegas. [Sean] : Oh, yeah. [Hana] : And I was like, it's the same thing, right, where you're just like, you come in the night and you wake up- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... in this place. Yeah. And you wake up and you're like, "Holy f***ing shit." And that experience- Yeah ... has not faded for me. That feeling of waking up in the morning and opening your eyes and seeing the Eastern Sierras when you're in Bishop- Yeah is unreal. And I feel like that feeling has not, that, like, excitement and, like, that sense of, like, awe is, like, that is the biggest pull for me. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And meeting really frigging cool people on the road. And then third is climbing. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : Like, being- That's cool ... on the road- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : is so much about me just, like, s- spending time outside- [Sean] : With weird, other weird people [Hana] : doing, being in, like, waking up. Well, I don't get to just wake up and see the mountains 'cause I'm blind, but I wake up, put on my little glasses. [Sean] : Your glasses. My little spectacles. Your, your old lady glasses. And then I see the mountains and it's unbelievable. And the, and the suns are sh- setting on the frigging- Yeah or it's rising on the mountains. Yeah, yeah. [Hana] : And you're like [Sean] : This is so cool. [Hana] : But- This is f***ing bananas Isn't this crazy? And every day I wake up and I'm like, "This is it. This is so frigging cool." Especially in Bishop, like, it's kind of amazing how, like, you can be camp... Like, you just get to camp for, like, t- three weeks for free in various places, and you can be, like, this year it was, like, strangely quiet in Bishop. [Sean] : And the lights, the light's really cool there, eh? Oh, my God. 'Cause it comes up- It's unreal ... and, and lights up those mountains, uh, on the east side. [Hana] : So beautiful. And that experience has not faded. There's no, uh... I, like, have not taken that for granted. [Sean] : What about the smells of the desert? [Hana] : The smells of the desert are amazing. What is that thing? What's that stuff called? Um, the, uh- [Sean] : Like creosote bush? [Hana] : Creosote, yeah. Yeah. The creosote bushes. And, like, yeah, Bishop this year is particularly quiet, and I found this, like, there was this little campsite just, just, like, just a ways off the main parking, but it's just tucked away enough and you wake up and there's, you can't see a single car around you, and you just, it's the Eastern Sierras. [Sean] : In your own little paradise. [Hana] : It's insane. [Sean] : I love how you or- you ordered that in terms of, like, the, um, amazing natural vistas, let's say. Yeah. And then second was being around- The relationships ... really cool people. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Interesting people. And then thirdly, the climbing. [Hana] : The climbing, [Sean] : yeah. And I'm not as... Like, I've done bouldering trips- Yeah and, like, bouldering's part of what I like to do, too. Mm-hmm. But mostly I've rope climbed- Yeah ... probably, you know, majority. And for me, even rope climbing, it's being i- it's like being in those places- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : where you are. Like, one of my favorite things is just belaying- Right ... up, up a cliff somewhere. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : You know? [Hana] : Yeah. ' [Sean] : Cause you're look- you're... The, what kind of vantage point is this that- Yes ... you can appreciate and experience? [Hana] : That's the one thing I will say. I feel like I, I get to go to unbelievable places and see crazy things. Yeah. But I will say that, like, there is a, a mild yearning to be up high. Like, to be... Like, I see the exposure of, of doing, like, sport climbing or trad climbing, the places you get to get to when you do rope climbing. [Sean] : You're intrigued a little bit? [Hana] : I'm intrigued. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : There's a slight- [Sean] : And you've done a little bit of things here and there. [Hana] : Oh, the most tiny amount. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : Okay. Maybe a d- like maybe a dozen- [Sean] : Okay [Hana] : outdoor- [Sean] : Rope climbs? ... [Hana] : rope climbing. Maybe more than that. Huh. But like very, very little. But yeah, anyway, those places and the people, it's so fun. Like- Mm ... being in Bishop specifically, it's actually interesting. I don't really like the climbing in Bishop that much, but it's the place that I go to, have gone to the most, 'cause it's like- A fa- a family almost at this point, the relationships I have there- Yeah ... of people that were once on the road- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : that I met living in their vans or in their trucks, living in the Buttermilks for months at a time, now have made their homes in Bishop. They have homes they've rented, they've purchased, whatever. [Sean] : Interesting. [Hana] : So I have a lot of friends that live there and have homes there. Yeah. Free showers. Thanks everyone. Ooh. I know. It's huge. [Sean] : Nice. [Hana] : But then- Yeah ... also, yeah, people that are still on the road. It's interesting though, times are changing in the sense that the demographic that does that still, it remains the same age- Getting younger, yeah, exactly. Yeah ... and I continue to ascend- Right. Kinda still there ... through the years. So that's different. [Sean] : I saw an Instagram post that you put up, um, that was really, uh, beautifully written. Actually, I think you're quite poetic on your Instagram posts. Thank [Hana] : you. I love... Actually, I do like writing- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : my- [Sean] : They're, they're nice. I, uh, I like your posts. Yeah. They're, it's very, uh- [Hana] : What was the thing- Yeah ... that struck you about this particular one? Oh, I ma- Was there one? I [Sean] : actually wrote it down. [Hana] : Oh, really? [Sean] : Yeah. Well, I was, I was struck by it. I just thought this, It kind of, like, epitomizes what you're talking about right now. So you said that, you wrote, "People move on, into houses, into careers, new hobbies, different focuses. But here I am, still happily puttering around in a van that, like me, remains unchanged and janky as ever, touching rocks, obsessed It's pretty lit. [Hana] : Nailed it. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : It's gorgeous. So but, but, you know, uh, within that, and it's kind of cool, like, uh, you get free showers out of it. But- Right ... that demographic- [Hana] : Mm-hmm ... [Sean] : that perhaps you were kind of... You were right in that demographic for [Hana] : a while. I was always just a touch older. [Sean] : Okay. ' [Hana] : Cause I really, think kind of, yeah, I didn't start climbing until I was 30. [Sean] : Right. So you were a touch older. 29. And yet perhaps some of those younger folks found careers and other ways- Yes of living- Yeah ... and kind of y- you're constantly recycling. They moved on. So how- 'Cause it's not [Hana] : sus- It's, uh, for most people, it's not sustainable. [Sean] : Yeah, yeah. ' [Hana] : Cause people move on. [Sean] : Um, so what's that like? Is that, is that, um, I don't wanna say depressing, but is that a kind of a- Mm. Some sadness there, or? [Hana] : I wouldn't say sadness so much as it just has become a little bit harder to, like... Not for me to fit in, 'cause I think they would w- welcome me, 'cause that's just the demographic of people who are living on the road. They just all wanna just be around each other. Freaking hippies. And... But I think for me, it's a little bit harder to be, like, allow myself, like, to, like, let myself, like... [Sean] : Expose y- [Hana] : Yeah. It- [Sean] : More of yourself. [Hana] : Yeah. It feels like- Yeah ... harder to con- Mm ... like let yourself be, like, vulnerable or yourself in a group of people that are literally 20 years younger than you. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard to not- For sure ... feel like I, that I'm, like, not, I'm not their peer, just purely because of the age difference. Yeah. Like, I'm twice their age. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And it's like... [Sean] : Yeah. Except that, I mean, you know, mostly I've been chatting with older, my old friends- True. Yeah ... on this show. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of, um, uh, fun as, or a number of us have reflected that climbing of all sp- Mm ... of, of any sport- Mm-hmm ... is so inclusive of age. [Hana] : It is, yeah. [Sean] : You know? It's a really cool thing that way, plus- [Hana] : It is, yeah ... [Sean] : so you have that going for you. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Plus living on the road- [Hana] : Plus I look 30. Thank you. Thanks for saying. [Sean] : No, you absolutely... I was- I wasn't sure if I could comment on your, your age or look, but you, you definitely don't look your age of 42 or whatever it is. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Um, and also, I think taking on that lifestyle of living on the road in the, quote-unquote, the dirt. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Uh, it gives you some cred, right? Like this... There, there's connections there on many different levels- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : uh, regardless of age. [Hana] : Yeah, for sure. I think it's more just, like, a willingness and an openness to, like, not f- come from a place of, like, judgment or defensiveness when you are, like, moving into a space of, like, 20-year-olds. You know what I mean? Just, like- Oh, yeah ... their language and the way they move through life- Oh, yeah ... is just, like, a bit different regardless of the fact that they're also doing the same lifestyle as me. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Um... [Sean] : Yeah. Are you babysitting out there? You're like, "Hey, you can't f***ing swear like that." [Hana] : I'll be like, "What'd you say?" Eh? "What does that mean? What are you even saying?" [Sean] : This is why you know all the lingo. [Hana] : Yeah. No, I don't. I don't know all the lingo. [Sean] : You don't, you- yeah. [Hana] : I definitely don't. I hear it, but I don't. [Sean] : What does that mean? [Hana] : Um. Are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? [Sean] : Oh, Hana. [Hana] : I, like, get defensive, and then I'm like- Oh, Hana they're like, "No, that's a compliment." I'm like, "Oh, thank- thank you." [Sean] : So, so, um, I do recall when I watched, uh, Emily's 20-Grit. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : I heard you referred to as grandma at, at one- Yeah ... juncture. Who was, [Hana] : uh- Well, that was Kennedy ... who was the... [Sean] : Was it now? [Hana] : Because, like, two days before she found out my age- ... and she freaked. [Sean] : She lost it. [Hana] : She completely, she straight up did not believe me. She thought she was, like, in on a, she, uh, she was, like, being joked upon. [Sean] : Duped, right. [Hana] : Duped. [Sean] : Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [Hana] : She, like, asked to see my ID. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : She 100% couldn't, couldn't believe it, so then she was just, like, beside herself about trying to- [Sean] : So it was a term of endearment, though- [Hana] : Yes from Kennedy, no doubt. Absolutely. Okay. At least I hope so. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : But, yeah, but this, it's insane. There's so many people out on the road that are, like, doing, doing it, and, like, a lot of them are the same age as me or older. Oh, okay. This amazing couple- Huh ... um, Chuck and Maggie that I met in Hueco, I don't know exactly how old they are, but I wanna say Chuck's maybe in his early 60s, Maggie's in her late 50s. Nice. I'll wake up in the morning and I'm, like, still rolling in bed, and Chuck will be out there doing fricking martial air, like- ... martial arts and, like, doing pull-ups and shit. [Sean] : Chuck, keep it down out there. [Hana] : Yeah. I was like, "f***ing hooligan." Goddamn old people. [Sean] : Freaking kids these days. So is there, um, oh, well, I'm afraid to ask the question, but so your band's name is Plop. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. [Sean] : Is- what's the origin of that name? Or dare I ask? [Hana] : It just, it just came to me. [Sean] : Okay. ' [Hana] : Cause it's, um, not a nice vehicle. [Sean] : No, it doesn't sound like it. No. Actually, I've seen pictures. [Hana] : Yeah, it's- [Sean] : Yeah, it's terrible. [Hana] : No, it's not a good vehicle, and Plop- [Sean] : Do you think, how long do you think it'll run for? It- how old is the damn vehicle? It's like- [Hana] : It's a 1993. Right. So older than everyone listening to this podcast. [Sean] : Quite a bit younger than some in the room. [Hana] : But, uh, yeah, it, it, it had died, but I revitalized it. [Sean] : So what... Is there a, um, uh, is there a hierarchy among dirtbags- ... in terms of, like, a legit dirtbag- [Hana] : Oh, [Sean] : that's [Hana] : such a [Sean] : good question ... who owns, who owns a, uh, 33-year-old vehicle- [Hana] : Yeah [Sean] : versus a, a squeaky new Sprinter van- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : in the parking lot at Bishop. I think [Hana] : there is. There's an unwritten hierarchy, for sure. [Sean] : Yeah. ' [Hana] : Cause, like, there's some pretty f***ing nice vans out there. [Sean] : There's a lot of them, it seems. Is there not? Y- ' [Hana] : cause, like, a Sprinter in itself is a very expensive vehicle, but the build-out can be- [Sean] : Mm [Hana] : pretty minimalist and, and, and still pretty dirtbaggy. You know what I mean? Even if the van itself is, like, a good, reliable- [Sean] : Right ... [Hana] : it's just, like, people wanna buy a vehicle that's, like- Ugh ... good and reliable, which I understand. And if you have that money- Oh, those people ... then obviously, why wouldn't you? [Sean] : Yeah, right. [Hana] : But, like, there's some build-outs, like, it's really about the build-out. Like, if- Oh ... your build-out- [Sean] : Silly tricked-out showers and- [Hana] : Oh, just, like, unbelievable- Hot tubs ... amounts of technology in there. [Sean] : Really? [Hana] : But I think there is. I think there's, like a, like you see- I would, I, I'd have to see it ... like, someone living out of their, like, you know, like, their Honda Fit, you're like, "Nice." [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : You know? Yeah. There's a certain- Yeah ... amount of just being like... [Sean] : Uh, so what, uh, you mentioned Bishop and Hueco. [Hana] : Mm-hmm. I [Sean] : mean, what, what are your favorite places down in that American Southwest, which I think is where you- [Hana] : I, well, my- ... you're at ... favorite place to climb is actually in the Southeast. [Sean] : Oh, like Kentucky and Tennessee [Hana] : and- Tennessee, yeah. Alabama. Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama. [Sean] : You climbing in Alabama? [Hana] : Yeah. Yeah. What- The life is harder. Like, I haven't ever had done van life there. Um, weather is- More buggy, buggy probably ... brutal. It gets hot. When the temps are good, it's great. Steamy. But there's so much private land, it's hard to do van life. It's just tricky. [Sean] : Right, right, right, right. [Hana] : It's, like, not as- Do you- ... easy logistically- Yeah ... which makes it hard to do well and cheap. [Sean] : Do you, are you fully solo when you're in places like that? Or are you, [Hana] : like, kind of, like- Not anymore ... is there a convoy? Is there a convoy? There's never, I'm never solo anymore because, like, I've done it for 10, 11 years. Yeah. So I just know so many people. Like, I'm going to Squamish in the summer, and I'm just like- Between camping and staying with friends, I just, it's just, I just know, I just know so many people now. Um, so I'm, like, never really alone. [Sean] : Yeah. We kinda- so was it a bad vibe, uh, with Seven Bays? Or, like, is that, it just didn't suit your lifestyle? It was... Like, you climb, like, you're good friends with everybody, I assume- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : from [Hana] : that- No, I have a good relationship- ... group and ... with Seven Bays now. I think I, when I left, I was so, so burned out. Like, I just, like, didn't- [Sean] : How long were you working at that job? ... [Hana] : want to have any. Uh, well, like, the 10 months before we opened. [Sean] : Okay. [Hana] : That was my favorite part. Hmm. Same thing. Projecting. [Sean] : Oh, yeah. [Hana] : And then we opened, and I l- wasn't, wasn't it. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : The opening of it, the, the dreaming, the figuring out- Right the, the process of, like, designing the cafe or designing the space and, like, figuring out what we wanted Seven Bays to be- Super cool. Yeah, [Sean] : yeah ... [Hana] : so fun. Yeah. Like, hiring the staff, like, getting to know the team, like, building a rapport, building what Seven Bays was gonna feel like and, like, be as a community- [Sean] : Yeah [Hana] : was so fun. And, like, doing events, so fun. The running of the gym, the day-to-day, I was, like, bad at and felt like, like I was just always doubting myself. Right. It was exhausting. [Sean] : Right. So your str- this brought stress that you didn't- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : need, whatever. Huh. [Hana] : Yeah, it just wasn't rewarding, I guess. Yeah. And, like, yeah. And then so I left- And it took me, like, couple years to wanna climb there again. [Sean] : Oh, wow. Yeah. Just, uh, kind of like, "Ah." [Hana] : Yeah, just so- Just stay away ... I didn't wanna think about it. I didn't wanna, like... Yeah. Uh-huh. It's just so much energy put towards the thing. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : You know? [Sean] : Uh. [Hana] : And then, but also because I've always been mo- I've always been an outdoor climber. Like, indoor climbing has never really been my thing. Um, I feel like I've climbed indoors more in the last, like, four or five years than I have, like, ever since I started, like, quote-unquote, "training." [Sean] : Yeah. So how often do you train? You do your physio stuff. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : Are you still nursing injuries with... Oh, you got some new [Hana] : ones. Everything just comes and goes. Yeah. Yeah. This guy here is totally blown up. There's, like, mul- there's, like, three pulley injuries in, within my pinky right now. [Sean] : Oh, God. [Hana] : And one of them is, like, a pretty high grade sprain, and then plus two other pulley injuries within the same finger, so the pinky's, like, pretty f***ed. But I kept climbing because it's just, like, I open hand a lot of things, and so... But on, obviously, on that one day where I freaking blew my pinky out, I was crimping the shit out of th- something in Bishop. I was on Checkerboard and in cut crimps, and it made a popping sound. And I was like, "Ah, it's probably nothing," and just kept climbing on that same thing, on the same climb for, like, the next two hours. That was, like, the highest psych day I've had in Bishop in a long time, though. I was just like- [Sean] : You just couldn't stop ... [Hana] : couldn't stop. It was so fun. [Sean] : Damn. [Hana] : Yeah. Damn. It's such a beautiful line. Do you know Checkerboard? [Sean] : I don't. [Hana] : It's, like, this V8 patina crimp, like, right facing- Oh ... upward facing traverse and into a high... It's, like, a high ball with a f***ing massive move at the end. Did I [Sean] : see... Did, is, did you post that? [Hana] : Photos of it, yeah. [Sean] : I think I've seen that. Yeah, that was gorgeous. [Hana] : Just beautiful. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And I've always just thought it was out of my ability, but yeah, turns out when you actually work at getting stronger and better at climbing, you can get better and stronger at climbing. [Sean] : Uh, was there a, was there a tip point? Like, did you, like, all of a sudden find yourself- [Hana] : I think kind of that year, that year 40 when I was, like- [Sean] : Yeah, right ... [Hana] : had been working with Matt for a year, and I was just, like, went from being, like, very injured to not injured and then s- then got to build on an uninjured body For the first time. So I got to get, like, strong instead of just not injured. [Sean] : Right. [Hana] : Which is kind of goes in ebbs and flows, but is, like, a really cool thing. And now I feel like my baseline is, like, much better. Like, I- it took me, like, years to be able to do, like, 10 pull-ups, and now I can go not do pull-ups for a year, and I can do eight pull-ups. [Sean] : Cool. [Hana] : Do you know what I mean? Like- [Sean] : Yeah. Right. It just brought the whole level- [Hana] : Yes ... up, up a ways ... everything is just, like, up. Yeah. Same with, like, core exercises, all the exercises, deadlifting, squatting, whatever. Like, when I first started working with Matt, I could... So f***ing weak. Like, it's unbelievable how many years I climbed and how hard I climbed on things, like doing fives and sixes, just on the weakest f***ing body ever. I've had a medical professional, a physiotherapist, not him, say the words alarmingly weak core in reference to my body. But my ability to, like- [Sean] : Just [Hana] : persevere [Sean] : and just- Yeah ... [Hana] : yeah. I think my tolerance for pain and my persistence of just- [Sean] : Crazy ... [Hana] : being hard-headed. [Sean] : What do you think about, um, like is there a... Sounds like you're still peaking as a climber. You're, you're getting stronger. [Hana] : I hope so. I think so, yeah. [Sean] : Is that, is that a trajectory you envision for a while? Or, like, there's some biology at play there- Yeah ... [Hana] : for all of us, but- Realistically, I don't think that is, it can be forever by any means, but I think that- It could be a while, [Sean] : quite a while longer, right? Like- [Hana] : It could be a bit longer, especially because I was so weak for so long. So, like, all of the years- Yeah ... of, like, biologically peak Hana was- Yeah, sure ... very weak Hana. [Sean] : You're way... Yeah, right, right, right. [Hana] : And now I'm, like, actively building my body to be strong and resilient. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And sure, I started at 39, but it's, like, better late than never. And I have all the experience of the eight years before. Sure, I was weak as f***, but I, like, am better at climbing now than I would have been if I had just started then, you know what I mean? Like, my t- like, I'm, like, much more technically proficient now. Of [Sean] : course, yeah. [Hana] : Because I have all that experience, even if I was janky as f***. 'Cause I think part of my jankiness was that I just didn't have any str- I had no core to support my movement. So, like, every time I moved- Yeah ... everything was going everywhere because- Right ... I had nothing, like, holding- It wasn't connected. Yes, exactly. Whereas now things feel connected, and I, like, feel like I'm a much better climber now. [Sean] : Super cool. [Hana] : So going back to Todd's thing, it's like I decided that I was gonna be a better climber, and so that took a hit in terms of, like, my progression of climbing, but it's so much more fun now. It's, like, so much better to, like, feel satisfied in doing a climb well than just doing it, for me. [Sean] : Super cool. [Hana] : Which, like, was not a value my first, like, eight years of climbing. I was just like, "Just f***ing send." Get the tick. Move on. There's a climb called Pain Grain in Bishop. It's, like, kind of a highball V5. V6? V5. There's a video of me on it, and it ta- it's a four-minute-long send video. And it does not slab out. It's just me just holding on for dear life. There's one part where I, like, go to chalk up, and I'm, like, in this super precarious, like, I'm on a slab, and it looks- Dude ... like chill, but I'm, like, holding on for dear life. Yeah. I go to chalk up. Chalk bag is closed. Because I'm a freaking boulder. And I'm like, "Oh, f***." And I'm just like, "Ah, ah, ah." And I'm just like, just tensiony, like, moving through these moves. Oh my God. And then I got to the top and had an asthma attack. was coughing for three hours after, just whooping cough, like an insane, horrible, lungy, airy cough for like three hours after. But just bad, just bad at climbing. But I would try so hard. And now I feel like- [Sean] : That's a, that's a super strength in itself, right? [Hana] : Well, so here's the thing. Not a lot of people have that. It's amazing. But now I've put a lot of value, like Todd said, on climbing things well and being precise- [Sean] : Yes ... [Hana] : and feeling satisfied in how I've performed in, within that climb, that I think it took away from my try hard, and now it's hard for me to access that try hard again. Oh. So now I wanna combine my strengths, and I need to tap into, like, old Hana- [Sean] : Oh, that's interesting ... [Hana] : where just hold on for dear life and get it done. Uh, that doesn't come around that often anymore. [Sean] : Oh, weird. Is that 'cause the new Hana's, like, looking for the cheat code? New [Hana] : Hana's, like, precise and- [Sean] : There's cheat codes. I can just find the cheat code. [Hana] : Precise and good. Just wanna be precise and good. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : And I think there's value in that, and I like that. Especially, I practice that at the gym a lot 'cause I'm not that into gym climbing. I don't try hard at the gym, like, at all. I've, like, the max I've ever tried is, like, maybe 70%. [Sean] : Right. Right. [Hana] : But I will, like, try to do things- [Sean] : I like that ... [Hana] : well- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : there 'cause it's at a good application. Like- Totally ... good, safe padding- Yeah ... and whatever. [Sean] : And you're in c- When you're not going beyond 70%- Yeah ... you're in control. [Hana] : Yeah, ideally. [Sean] : And you're- [Hana] : And, like- Yeah ... trying to work on shit. I have so many weaknesses within my movement of climbing that I just am like, "How do I take a foot that's over there, toe in on it, and then pull with it?" All I wanna do is drop my janky little knees. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : How do I, like, pull with my toes and, like, stay square? I'm really bad at climbing, like, really square on. And, uh- So it sounds like- ... just working on those skills. I love working on the skills 'cause then you can never run out of things. [Sean] : Mm. [Hana] : Because even if I plateau and I never climb V10, I'm still, like... I can still drive satisfaction from, like, doing a V4 incredibly well. Your strength can only get you so far, and I think unless you, like, think about how you climb and do, like, have any desire to do it well, you're only gonna get so good. And I think especially as I get older, that's, like, become more and more important 'cause, like, the wear and tear of my body, I can't just throw for shit and, like, half sublux my shoulder and, like, ke- hold on and keep climbing and, like, expect to be able to climb the next week or the next day. Like, when I'm on the road, I'm climbing, like, five days a week still. [Sean] : Oh, that's amazing. Where do you, where do you get... What inspires you to keep climbing and climb harder and learn to climb more efficiently and- smoother and whatever [Hana] : I just like it. I just like climbing, I think. [Sean] : Does it fade at all? Do you get bored of it ever? [Hana] : It faded for that one year. Yeah, [Sean] : yeah. [Hana] : But up until that one year, three, four years ago- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : just psych was so high for so long. Yeah. It just never dipped. For like eight years, didn't dip. Dipped one year, and then since then it's been, like, high. [Sean] : Nice. [Hana] : It's, like, always high. [Sean] : And is there any specific people that inspire you? Like, do you- [Hana] : Um- [Sean] : Is this all, like, just self-driven, or do you get some external- [Hana] : No, I definitely love- ... [Sean] : inspiration? [Hana] : Yeah. Big time. Where, where does that come from? 'Cause if I only ever climb by myself, I probably would've stopped climbing by now, you know what I mean? Like, if- Yeah, sure ... if climbing was a completely solo sport, and every time I went on the road I wouldn't see a soul- [Sean] : Yeah [Hana] : you know. Um, yeah, it's more of a... Sounds kind of whatever, but it's more of, like, a vibe- [Sean] : Mm-hmm ... [Hana] : than it is, like, a climber who inspires me with their- Okay ... like, proficiency of climbing. [Sean] : Okay. Yeah, [Hana] : yeah, yeah. I just like hanging out with people that I like hanging out with, and, like, if I'm enjoying my company, I'll enjoy myself climbing. [Sean] : Yeah. So we've been chatting for a while here. Uh- [Hana] : Yeah ... [Sean] : just, um, like, what are you, what are you looking forward to in the future? What are you... Any specific goals, or where you wanna take your climbing? [Hana] : I just wanna keep climbing. Or life or whatever. Yeah. I think it would be cool if I were to pick, like, a goal, which I'm not, like, a super... I'm, like, a performance-oriented person, I think, more than a goal-oriented person, but if I were to pick a goal- [Sean] : Hmm, that's a neat way. Performance-oriented versus goal-oriented. [Hana] : Yeah. [Sean] : That's cool. Yeah. [Hana] : I would say it would be really cool to do Checkerboard in Bishop. [Sean] : As a specific send. [Hana] : Yeah. A specific boulder. [Sean] : Right on. Yeah. [Hana] : Um, I just, like, never... It's just so beautiful and, like, quite crimpy, and crimps aren't really necessarily my strength, but it's, like, heady with, like, big moves, and I like heady climbs that are, like, get you a little scared and you have to be brave. Like, I like that component. Um, so Checkerboard would be really cool. I really wanna do Old Soul Extension. I've been working that for a while. I've gone through, like, two spurts, like, two, like, good phases where I was, like, properly projecting it and, and then, like, dabbled here and there otherwise. So I think that one could go this year. Um, I don't know. I think I just wanna keep getting better at climbing. I want to take care of my body, which is really hard to do when I'm also deeply stubborn and really like climbing. It's a really- [Sean] : Yeah ... [Hana] : hard thing. And I don't have literally any other hobbies. So if I can't climb, I'm like, "f***ing, I guess Netflix?" I have no other interests. It's really so... I'm just so... That's it. I'm- I don't like reading. Like, not [Sean] : even reading. You don't like listening to podcasts. [Hana] : I don't like listening to podcasts. No. I don't like cycling. I bike every day. Don't like it. [Sean] : Yeah. [Hana] : Just as a means to get around. I don't wanna be in the water. Surfing, it sounds dreamy. Not into it. Don't like being in the water. Don't like being wet. [Sean] : Climbing is it. [Hana] : Climbing is- That's the only thing ... kind of it. [Sean] : Yeah. Well, I mean, thanks for coming in and finally coming in and sitting down with me and sharing your, some of your stories. [Hana] : Yeah. This was fun. I'm glad we did it. [Sean] : Yeah, we did it. We did it. I think we did it. [Hana] : We did it. Never to be aired, but still. [Sean] : So just for the record, Hana did actually let me release this episode. Thanks everyone for listening, and thank you Natasha, for passing along my messages. Super grateful as always to Climb Nova Scotia, Unfiltered Brewing, East Peak Climbing, and Seven Bays Bouldering for helping out with the podcast. If you want to learn more about this or other episodes, you can check out the website at iceboxsessions.ca. Catch y'all later It's people. You know I'm gonna cut all your dumbass comments out. [Hana] : No, you gotta keep this shit. It's gotta be goofy. [Sean] : This is gold. [Hana] : This is gold. [Sean] : A complete waste of everybody's time. [Hana] : That's what I would like.