Episode 8 - Todd Foster === Todd: I never would've expected this. I had climbed for a very long time and was not very good. Sean: And you've gotten pretty good I would say. Todd: Maybe I'm just more passionate about sport climbing because I like to create, my goals are to give back to the community, making the guidebook, documenting that stuff. Sean: Hey everybody. Welcome to another Icebox session. My name is Sean Cassidy and we are in conversation with Nova Scotia rock climbers. Today's guest needs no introduction, really. Todd Foster has contributed immensely to the climbing scene here over the last 25 years or so. He's written multiple guidebooks, produced an award-winning climbing film that has toured the globe and opened up hundreds of boulder problems and bolted climbing routes across the province, focusing on moderate grades that are accessible to everyone. So grab your favorite homemade bouldering pad and get comfortable. It's time to enter the Icebox. Thanks for showing up. We've climbed like twice maybe in here. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, the Icebox is hard, if I recall. Sean: I was thinking, I was remembering your old, wall, the Grotto which was a lot harder, I think steeper. Todd: It was, yeah. Yeah, It was, the Grotto was really hard. Yeah. Sean: Do you miss that wall? Todd: I, do miss the Grotto. but I tell anyone that's thinking about building a wall, I'm like: you get bored of it, especially if you're climbing on it alone. Sean: Yeah. it's not for everybody. Like you have to be particularly motivated - and I guess I am that way because I've used this since I've put it in. Todd: Yeah. Sean: So yeah, let's get, so I'm excited to chat with you because you are one of the most requested guests, actually. When I've asked people who you would like to listen to hear about history, it'd be Todd Foster. Todd: People haven't heard enough? Sean: You'd think so, but no. Todd: Yeah. Sean: They, want more. They want more. Todd: It's crazy. Sean: Yeah. But my sense is, and maybe I'm wrong, but my sense is a lot of people in the community know you primarily because of your guidebooks. Three guidebook now. one Rope Climbing guide book that I think came out in 2019. Todd: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Sean: You did one for Digby Neck. Todd: Yep. Sean: And a couple years ago you did one for Halifax Region. And you're working on a fourth one now, so I think people know your name from that. And maybe they're curious, what's, for those that are maybe just coming on the scene in recent years, who the hell is this guy? Todd: Yeah. Sean: Maybe just to start there, what's, what motivated you to dig into producing guidebook? 'cause man, it is a lot of work. Todd: It's so much work. I wouldn't - I guess the rope guide... it was never on my radar to do guidebooks. I don't. I think we talked about it a bunch, but I don't think I ever really took that leap. It was not that, I guess it was never really a driving factor. I was interested. We should have them, we should always, I've done little ones. I get, you know what, now I'm gonna backtrack you. No, I have been doing Sean: You've always been interested? Todd: Yeah, always been interested, but I, don't think I would've, I wouldn't have, it wasn't me that decided to do the rope guide. It was Alex Sosi who, partnered with on that. He, was his, he was working with Matt McPhee. Sean: Yeah. Todd: And Alec had, Sean: You mean Working working? Todd: He was a professor at SMU, at Alec was working with him and was talking about, I don't know what, I don't wanna, I don't wanna upset previous guidebook authors in case they hear this, they're hanging around. But I think he felt like that, that it was hard to know that what was lacking was, it was hard to know where to go if he were. If he were like just starting out or wanted to go top roping with his daughter or there was a little bit more, and I think there had been so many new crags definitely as well on top of that. Sean: definitely, definitely. Yeah. Todd: So many new routes that had been done and he was talking to Matt about it and Matt's and saying he would be interested in doing a guidebook, and he is you should talk to Todd. And so he set us up, introduced us. We met at, Good Robot, had a beer, and he sounded like the perfect partner, it was like he was really driven. Sean: And so, maybe for context, what most people probably know, but I wrote a book back in 99, 2000, 2001, 2001 maybe. and by the point, by the time you guys got around to doing a new one Yeah. what's the math on that? 15 years had passed. Lots of new crags had been developed. Todd: Yeah. Sean: technology had changed in terms of how to produce a book, Yeah. It, and. I was looking at your book before this chat, and one of my favorite parts of it is the photography in there, which I think is by and large, Matt's work, right? colour, beautiful, colorful shots, climbing shots, inspiring photos. Todd: Yeah. probably I'd have to look through, but yeah, the bulk of it's Matt, some of it's mine. yeah, that was great - I loved working with him on that - the cover photo was a great Sean: Oh, with Anne? Yeah. Todd: Yeah, yeah. Great story. He, yeah. Sean: What's the deal on that? I was wondering, I was like, did she brush your hair, like up on the route for that or something? She's all well coiffed and, styling, Todd: Because I come from the film industry, it's oh, dress in bright colors. Make sure if you want, if you want a photo look nice, dress nice and make the colors pop, it'll be more interesting, easier to work with. Matt was gonna shoot from the. I was out there to help support, I was like, this, is the route I think we should shoot. for the cover. It feels like that encapsulates Nova Scotia rope climbing. Sean: Yep. Todd: That's Sean: Mea Culpa is the route she's on. Todd: Yeah. Yep. he was, so he was, if you're looking at the face, he was on climbers, he rapped, wanted to wrap down climbers left. And I was like, no no no. So I rigged a line. I let him, I think, I don't know if he went down it or not. I can't, I don't recall. But I rigged the line on the right and I was like, trust me, shoot this way. This is the shot. The sun's we're gonna get. The sunset coming around. The light's gonna be across her face. Yeah. If she reaches up around that roof. Oh, it's gorgeous. It's, she's gonna be looking right in through. It's gonna be incredible. Sean: Yeah. Todd: This is the place. So I'd rigged the rigged a couple lines. I went down with him and when he got down and he is oh yeah, this is, the shot. Sean: Yeah. So, Matt may have taken the photo, but you were the mastermind behind that shot. Todd: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sean: Yeah. Todd: The director Sean: Credit where credit is due. Todd: I'm good at, I think I was good at, [bossing people around?] Boss. yeah, exactly. Directing, Sean: yeah. it's a superpower. Todd: Setting up a situation, setting up a situation where you could, where you could, where you knew something would happen, that would be cool. Sean: Yeah. Cool. I think one, one thing that I'm impressed with, I think is cool, is all these guidebook projects you've had, you've, had partners to do them. The Halifax one you did with, Graham Reid, I think. Todd: Yep. Sean: And the Digby one, Rob Grandy was helping you with that one. Todd: Yeah. Sean: So that was conscious on your part to share the workload, but also get other input and just engagement from other climbers? Todd: Yeah. I'm hoping that, I'll find the person that will pick up the task after me. After me, who will do the next volume that will, that the, biggest Sean: You're succession planning. Todd: Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Sean: Cool. Todd: I hope, yeah, I hope so. biggest, biggest thing Sean: Rob and Graham need to be warned. They're, they're on, Todd: I think I told them Sean: They are along for the duration. Todd: The biggest thing I came out after finishing the rope guide was that it was exhausting. I was tired. I was like, done. But then I was like, oh man, I've learned so much. I've learned so much. And it took, there was a lot of learning to get to that point. I was like, it would be a shame to lose that knowledge. So it was like, so we came, Sean: but like what, things were you were learning, Todd: like graphic design and layout and, just the efficiencies of, going out and taking pictures and writing descriptions and, how you follow up on that. All that takes time to figure out, to do layout on the book, printing, like approaching advertisers, the financial side of it. Sean: So you're leveraging what you learned from the first guide into the subsequent ones and sharing that with other people so they know what to do next time. Yeah, Todd: yeah, yeah. Sean: Cool, cool. And I understand, so the one you're working on now is Eastern Shore, and I think is Zach on board for that? I feel like he was maybe gonna help or maybe not sure if he wanted to, I think be bus around by you as much. I'm not, I'm not gonna put words in Zach's mouth here, but, Todd: oh, you've talked to Zach? About Sean: No, no, no Todd: I don't think I've scared him off yet. Sean: Good. Todd: I'm probably getting harder to work with actually. Sean: Yeah. It's, you're becoming more curmudgeony? Todd: I'm feeling more, I'm feeling the time crunch. Sean: Okay. Todd: Now. I have, Sean: what is your time? Todd: I had in, when I started the Digby one, I'm like, okay, this is gonna be five bouldering. I'm gonna do five bouldering guides. I'm gonna give myself 10 years. Sean: Oh, okay. Todd: I think I can do it in 10 years. I don't think I'm on track. Sean: Right. Todd: But, Sean: okay. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Todd: Yeah. Sean: So we've been talking about your current and recent endeavors with the whole guidebook stuff, but a lot of people who have listened to this - other episodes of this podcast, they're pretty interested in how people got started, especially older people like you and I - and others, because it's a, I guess it's a bit different than how maybe people approach the sport now. [Yeah.] And my recollection is that when I moved here, I think around 95. I think you were just getting started at that point. And you were climbing with Frank Armstrong. Yeah. And Deb Stover, maybe Harry Fisher, maybe. I dunno what was going on then? How did you, what caught your interest back then and how were you doing it? Todd: That was, there was, where I was working, a good friend I was working with, this guy she was dating at the time, Phil D'entremont was his name. He had taken her out rock climbing. They went up to Eagles Nest..... [Oh, I love that place] .... and she was like, she's oh, you would, Todd, you would love this. You should Phil will definitely love to take you out rock climbing. And I was like, rock climbing. What's that? I'm like, what? that sounds interesting. Sure. And Phil took me out to Eagles Nest. And he set up a top rope. I had like running shoes or something like that, and he had a harness for me and we toproped the climb and I was like, oh, this is cool. I don't even know if I got to the top or how, it doesn't matter. Went my rec, I don't have much of a recollection of the, actual physical climbing, but I remember it was, I was engaged. I thought it was cool. And at the time, Dal had the wall up in the Fieldhouse, that little wall. And I had a membership at Dal and I was like, oh, this is something I can do inside in the winter, when I can't get outside and do the other things I like. I didn't even, at that point I wasn't even thinking rock climbing was something I would do outside. It was like, oh, I'll just do this. It's another physical activity. And I was, playing around on that wall in the field host. I think that's when I must have met, I must have met Deb Stover and that crew that was running Climb Nova Scotia at that time, and then went outside with them out to Eagles Nest another time. And then that's where I met Frank Armstrong, who was walking. He was walking along. Caught a bus out there, walking along the base. He was in, he was working at the time for the Daily News, the newspaper. Sean: Okay. Todd: So he was in, he was in the news media like I was at the time. And, so we hit it off and we became climbing partners. Sean: Neat. Todd: Yeah. And we learned to rock climb together outside by these, with these shitty books. There was no YouTube. Sean: Yeah. But, you, that guy who took you at first, Phil. D'Entremont. Yeah. D'Entremont. Did he showed yout the basics..... I think that Todd: was the only time we went out together. Sean: Really? Yeah. And the rest of it, you figured out how to rig a top rope and Todd: Yeah. Out of Sean: how to tie a figure eight. Todd: Yeah. Out of these books. Wow. Yeah. Sean: Zero instruction more or less. Todd: It was so, slow. So slow to learn. But, Sean: but Todd: I don't think I would change it for, I wouldn't give it up for anything. There's something about learning in that way, that slow, that people slow don't learn like that anymore, Sean: Yeah. Todd: Oh man. Like reading a book and looking at these, all these super whack anchors, and it was a book, it was British climbing, so I was like, think it was like Gritstone or something. Sean: Freedom of the Hills or something. Todd: Not even that. I can't remember what the book was about. Anchors. And it's like craziest rigging to build an anchor sl the horn. Yeah, yeah, But you learned a lot that way, Sean: huh? And it was just you and Frank bumbling along. Todd: Yeah, yeah. I, think, God, I remember what I vaguely recall a time we were out at Columbus Wall, and I think we ran into you out there. All I remember from it was that we were taking forever to set up a top rope. Like it took us half a day to set up a top rope out there. And I think you might have finished your climbing day, come in after us and left before us before Sean: we you were still, you were building an anchor still. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Crazy. Okay, so Eagles nest, I thought you might have been dabbling there in the beginning. That's where a lot of people started and Todd: yeah, Sean: the benefit of that place is it had easy routes for people to climb, accessible for learners, top rope anchors and whatever. And, maybe it was a while after that, but Sean came and, built Ground Zero probably within a few years of you starting to climb. Is that, Todd: yeah. I don't Sean: accurate Todd: my recollection of that, of my recall and how much time passed back then is not good. Sean: It's compressed. Todd: Or maybe it's expanded. Like it felt like it was a really long time, but I don't know that it was, I I know what you mean, if I really think about it, I think Frank and I would've climbed together maybe two summers. Like two years? Yeah. Something like that. And then I think maybe ground Sarah would've opened around there. So yeah, not long after I would've met. 'cause was that the time that you, is that when you moved, you came here for university, right? Sean: No, Bonnie came here for university. I moved here to join her. It was gonna be temporary, but we ended up getting, pretty invested here. At least I did, particularly in climbing. So we ended up staying, but, so I would've come here maybe a couple years before Sean did and opened the gym. Todd: And, Was that? No, I'm, gonna get this like Colin, was that Sean: Colin Matthews? Todd: Was he here when you came here? Sean: He was. Colin was a student, with Chris Chetcuti. Todd: And how did you meet them? Sean: God, I don't know. Todd: I assume, see, that's why I assumed you were in university. You went here, here. Sean: No, probably at the wall. Probably at Dew Wall. 'cause I used to climb there. Todd: Yeah. And Jonathan, with Sean: Jonathan came later though. Yeah, for sure. Todd: Yeah. So Jonathan, I think actually that was probably the big change from I was climbing with that group, that was running CNS, that was Deb Stover and. Harry Fisher and that group. And I think after that, like when I started climbing on the Dal wall that I ran into Jonathan, him and his high energy, that guy had just such great energy and he was so friendly and he had Sean: Always with a big grin on his face. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. we met at the wall and I think he invited me, to go out outside bouldering. Sean: Right. Todd: And I had no idea what, Sean: oh, okay. Todd: Bouldering was. Like what that meant. what, it was all about. Sean: Sure. Todd: I did have shoes. I would've had climbing shoes at that point. The fire fires or something? Sean: Oh, really? Fires?! Todd: Yeah. I think they were my first shoes. Sean: Okay. Todd: Really. Sean: I know you became a fan of the, the Mythos. Mythos, which I loved as well. Those purple ones. Todd: I had a real aversion to foot discomfort. So the Mythos really went well. Sean: Yeah, that's me now. Todd: Jonathan invited me out, said, Hey, we're gonna go out to, we went to Duncan's Cove. Sean: Yeah. One of those classic spots, coastal spots. Todd: I don't recall the trip out or anything, but I do recall that's where I met you. Oh, Sean: okay. Todd: I think I'm certain that was the first time I had met you and I believe, maybe, I suspect it was Dave was there. Sean: Yeah, Dave Edgell. I used to climb a lot with Dave. Todd: Yeah. And maybe Colin as well. And I don't remember. Sean: That was, the entire cast of climbers at the time. Todd: That was it. I was like, that was my intro, introduction to Sean: cool. Todd: To that. And we went to, we went down to Duncan's Cove and you guys got on the Robar Boulder, which has moved since it's, less. Yeah. Sean: It used to be awesome. Todd: It was awesome. It was crazy steep. Yeah. But had holds on it. Sean: I know. It was like, it was like unusual for here Todd: and you guys, I just remember you guys hopping on that thing and doing climbing that on such a steep angle completely blew my mind. The way you move your body on it. I was just like, oh my God, what is this? 'cause you're not just climbing a, slab or straight up face. You're like heel hooking and doing, these. I was like, thought you guys were Superman or something. I was like, Sean: Well, we were! :) Todd: Yeah. And I, so that was my, introduction to what you guys, the level at which you guys were pushing things. I think before then I was like really just dabbling in very, I don't really, don't think I understood how far. You could go with like how hard it could be [Sure.] And what it would take. And Sean: you guys started in a little bubble here. Todd: Yeah. Sean: You learned, from some books. [Yeah yeah] and slowly got exposed to people who had experience elsewhere and Jonathan and others. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Sean: You're making me think of, these early bouldering stories are fun and I think people might be interested in it, but you're making me think of our, homemade pads in the early days. Todd: Yes. Sean: And I think, I was the fir the first one to build one, which, I called Buddy. He still exists. He's, in the Icebox over there. Todd: Buddy Sean: wants, nobody likes to use Buddy, underneath him 'cause he is a little bit soft. And then you made one. Todd: I did, yeah. Sean: did it have a name? Todd: Cartman. "You're fat Cartman." Sean: Yeah. Todd: South Sean: Park from South. South Park. South Park. Todd: South Park, yeah. Sean: Yeah. South Park. But, the funny, funniest one was, Jonathan Graham, who we were talking about. Todd: Was l'accordienne Sean: it John Jonathan? Yeah, exactly l'accordienne Todd: L' accordienne. Sean: Yeah. So he found, he was walking down, it was like garbage day on Quinpool or something. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And someone had thrown out this old lawn chair, folding lawn chair. Todd: Yeah. Sean: It was, it was like a Todd: three piece or something. Sean: So three would folded neatly into three things. [Yeah. ] And he rigged up some bit of duct tape and string or something, and he could carry it on his back Todd: that might have been completely, I can't remember if you had Buddy at the time where we went out to Herring Cove or where we were just throwing down a piece of carpet. But I, feel like, I felt like Jonathan had l'accordienne there. Sean: Okay. Todd: Which was barely anything. No, they were Sean: not. It was, yeah. If you think Buddy's bad, that was, Todd: it's, that Sean: was awful. Todd: Barely comfortable to sit on. Yeah. Let alone fall on. Sean: Yeah. Things have changed, man. Like the. Stack pads that everybody has and built up areas below. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Sean: Do people still spot outside or has that gone away as well? I know in the, I always found it weird in the gyms where you don't really spot people anymore. You used to. Todd: Yeah. I don't know where if people are spotting much outside. Sean: they must, they must be. It's Todd: gone. I hope so. They must be. I would hope. Yeah. Although I think there's a lot of people that go out alone. there's, I think there's a whole bunch of loners out there going out with their pads and, I've never been much, I was never much of a loner for that. Sean: But you're a social, you're a social guy. Todd: Yeah. But Digby taught, me being in digby during c alone down there taught me developed a new way of approaching problems. And I wouldn't even say I was working them. I would pull on and be like, oh, okay. Yeah, no, I can, I didn't even feel like I was gonna fall, but I would figure out if I was gonna fall where it was. And then I, you pull onto a holds a bunch of times, you really are working it. that's, that's how some people work problems. You just pull on and hold a position and that's everything. That's Ben, that's a Ben Smith style, right? that's how he would, Sean: I was, Todd: beat something into attrition by just like pulling on and holding a mo a position. Sean: I went, climbing with, bouldering with Hana and, Mike Cheng, I think that's his name, Mike. Todd: Yeah. Hana, who I think learned to project with Ben Smith. Sean: Okay. Todd: yeah. Does that make sense? Sean: Yeah. the, it was a fun day. We just, we were playing on Smurley, if you know this problem.? [Yeah.] really hard. Like way too hard for me really Todd: Yeah. Scary in there too. Sean: But we were all. We would take her turns and just kinda hold, the move. Yeah. And that was progress. Just holding the holding the thing. And then we tried this next move, we hold that. Todd: Yeah, exactly. Sean: And I was like, okay, this is bouldering, huh? Todd: Yeah. At a certain level. At a certain level. Sean: Yeah. Yeah. I gotta, pick Hana's brain. I'm tr been trying to get her on this thing and, she can, teach me all about the new world of bouldering. Todd: Yeah. Sean: The current state. Todd: I think that's a, style of projecting. I like, Imean holding a grip is nice, but moving through, moving on rock is also nice. Yeah. So I prefer to do projects that are more at the edge of my, Yeah. What end of oh, where I can put in a couple sessions and make progress on each session and be like, oh, and you Sean: and feeling that flow of Todd: Yeah. Sean: Climbing, which Todd: yeah, like volume. I'll go back and I like repeating stuff that I've done long ago. it's really nice to see if you can get that recall back and Yeah. I don't like if you do a thing and then you just walk away from it and that's, you never go back to it. It's, I like going back to things, you know. Sean: there's some things I, kinda walking away sometimes. Like I have gone back to things route. I'm thinking of routes in my mind, I've had some amazing experiences on a particular route. And then I go back thinking, I'll recreate that experience. Which is a culmination of all kinds of things, just like setting and the vibe and whatever is happening. And sometimes it's a letdown, So there's some experiences where I'm like, that was awesome. I don't e even wanna try to repeat that 'cause it was just so cool. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. I can totally see that more. For me, it's almost as much like I go back and try to gauge where I'm at as I get older. Went out to Bop Gun the other day out in Yellow Sea. Nice. But after we went there, we went to Width of a Circle and it was really fun just to be able to pull on and be like, what? What is that position? What does my knee have to do? Where's my foot? Find something with your body. What are my shoulders where, like how do I get on and pull myself into this place to be able to move my hand? And it was fun to be able to have that. Recall of Sean: yeah, Todd: I don't remember the, I can't, I was like, until I was on it, I couldn't remember the beta. It's Sean: like a visceral kind of, Todd: yeah. Sean: Echo or something. Todd: Yeah. And you, and when you get into that position again, you're like, oh yeah, that, that's the place. Oh, this is what's, how I'm moving my body. That's why I can be in here. [This is very cool.] Oh, So I'm still learning from trying to do it again. I'm learning more about rock climbing even now. Sean: Yeah. I was, wondering if you go back to some of these problems that maybe you had done 10 years ago when you're perhaps stronger, but you've learned a lot more about body position and efficiency and technique and stuff. So in many ways it's, you're climbing it in a different way, Todd: yeah. Sean: You, you, Todd: it's a different body. I have a different, body. Sean: It's a different body. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I wanted to ask you about this because it's relevant to what you're saying. I think there seems to be a predominance of people using, beta videos two. Understand how to approach a problem before they even get on it. At least that's my perception. Todd: Yep. Sean: There seems to be a lot of videos available out there for specific problems. And, I think people use those to maybe fast track the beta, but they're perhaps missing part of the experience is my ab my sense. But what, I wanna hear from you. Todd: Absolutely. Sean: I wanna hear your Todd: Absolutely. Anecdotally a great example of that. This, past summer down in Digby, we go in, there's a crew working around, Around Boulder with, has Operation Bronze God on it. There was a crew of people down there Sean: who put that up? That sounds like a fun name. Todd: That's a great name. Sean: Who put it up.? Todd: That's a Rob Grandy special. Sean: Of course it is. Yeah. Backdoor Randy. Todd: Yeah, Backdoor Randy. so we were warming up and I was like, okay. I was feeling pretty good. I was like, man, I want to go down and do that problem. I haven't done it in a long time. There's a bunch of pads down there, there's a crew of people. I'm just gonna go insert myself into this crew who I don't know. I've never seen 'em around. Sean: Yeah. Todd: It's like I'm just gonna insert myself in. Yeah. See if I can get on this problem. See if I can slip into the, rotation. Go. Yeah, go. Sean: Did you have to, take your shirt off for that? Todd: No, definitely not. I'm not a shirt off guy. This body is, nobody wants to see that. but anyway, I started to climb with this crew and they were from Ontario and I, there was like eight of them or something like that. Big crew. Super fun. Really, fun crew. We did that. A bunch of us did that really quickly. bronze God. Then we were like, I was like, I like to try to do every problem on this boulder in one session. Nice. So that's what I started doing. Bowl. Yeah. so we went in, and got into Advanced Human Society and one of the guys, we threw the pads in and a couple of 'em did it super fast, like first go flashed it. And I was like, that's incredible because it's weird beta. And they just seem to know it right away. Like it just fell into it. They did it and it was, they're super strong on it. I was like, oh, that's amazing. Wow. You really read that? Sean: Yeah. Todd: Super. and they're like, they were like, we watched half a dozen videos over and over again before getting, before coming. And I was like, first I was surprised that there were that many videos. I was like, where are these videos? I've not seen them. But I was like, oh, wow. They, yeah, they watched the videos. They do the problem. It's over and done with really quickly. Sean: Yeah. Todd: which, Sean: so they can do more problems, They can do another one instead of just, Todd: they can do another one, which is great if you're traveling. Yeah. That's, really fun. Yeah. Yeah. But also you miss something as well in that, the journey of figuring it out and working it out. Sean: it seems to me too that sometimes it becomes, unintentionally perhaps, but it becomes the gospel in terms of how you're supposed to do something. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Oh, no, You're supposed to hold it this way. Yeah. Or you start with your hands crossed or something. Yeah. I'm just making that up, but Todd: yeah. Yeah. yeah, the prescribed beta, it's like this is the, and, you, if that's the only way, if that's the, if that's how you approach going out bouldering and climbing, you see the video, you're like, oh, I watch a video. So now I. Now I know what it looks like. You spend a lot less time figuring out how to do something on your own. Sean: Totally. Todd: Do you know, does that make sense? and I think you miss something. there's a, learning, there's a learning experience. Part of that too is I, you, miss out on the creative process of it. Totally. Sean: Yeah. Todd: that's when I develop stuff, like when I look at, when I go and look at a boulder that doesn't have anything on it, maybe I see it differently because I've always learned to climb, look for the holds and think about the positions that move across that where somebody watches a video, doesn't have to think that way. They haven't trained their brain to be, to look for that. So maybe they're not gonna develop new problems or they won't. Sean: So it's in a, way it's a skillset that maybe, or a muscle that people don't get a chance to develop, but it's also an experience that's super fun. Yeah. it's, a lot of people enjoy that puzzle aspect of climbing to just unlock those things in your body. it's pretty cool. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Sean: So you had, you started talking about climbing in the LOC and doing Bop Gun there, I think you were with Sean and others early days developing that whole area. Todd: Yeah. Sean: I wanna talk about Eastern Tide, which kind of started to document some of that stuff, but any favorite memories of new problems going up there or mishaps or learnings? Todd: It's funny, the other day we were out and we were out in the LOC, the, just the other day. And, I, had tried I, somebody asked about first ascents or like problems I had put up and I was like, oh, I, Sean: can't remember. Todd: I don't think I put any of them up Sean: in the LOC? Todd: Yeah. Sean: Oh, okay. Todd: Because I was climbing with you guys. Like you and Therien and Jonathan, you were all better than me. So much better than me. You had been climbing longer and you were, you had learned in different, all, maybe, I dunno where Jonathan came from, but you came from Ontario. I think you had better access to, you had better access to climbing in gyms and more structured climbing you, your, learning curve was much faster. So you, you also were stronger. You guys we're all just better than me. Like I'm a very average rock climber, and I Sean: keep at it Todd: maybe someday. Sean: And you've gotten pretty good, I would say. Todd: Yeah. But I think, but the community's gotten so much better as well. Like people get better faster than we ever did. Sean: Oh, yes. Todd: Anyway, so to that, you were, I was always climbing you guys, I was always just following. Sean: Right. So, you were trying to repeat whatever we were working on or Todd: We were working things together and you guys would do it and then we'd move on to the next thing and I'd never have and I wouldn't have done it. Yeah. And so I had a lot of things left undone for a very long time. Sean: Nice. Yeah. ' Todd: cause everyone was looking for the next thing and I was still, I was getting left behind and so some of this, like the guidebook, especially the Halifax one was a lot of it was me. Oh, Sean: very cool. Todd: Going back and motivation to go Yeah. And committing to doing problems that I had left behind that everyone else had done. Sean: Yeah. Todd: And I had never been able to do. And I was like, now it's my, now I'm gonna do this for me. It's gonna be, I'm gonna do this. Sean's problem. Your problem at, Andy's area Chebucto Head Sean: Yeah. Yeah. it's cool, eh? Todd: I love that problem. It's weird. That is so cool. That is such a great problem. And it's not over once you do the cracks, like the Sean: Yeah, Todd: Coming. Yeah. Coming around is heady and yeah, it's great. like that one of Herring Cove Tomb with a View. Never done it, once you, once everyone else had done something, it's hard to convince everyone to give up a day and go back and spot you on something that you've already done. Sean: Yeah. But you have all those wonderful things to do again, and you pro you must have, run in with that group, you would've advanced your skills quicker. I think being challenged by climbing harder things, would you say? Yes. Todd: Yes. Absolutely. Sean: even though you didn't sound the problems, you were getting better at climbing. Todd: yeah, Exactly. No, I don't, yeah, I wouldn't, I don't have any regrets for it. It was just like how it happened. Yeah. it was good that I got, I was lucky that I got to climb with people that were so much better than me and the things I learned by climbing with you guys, it was amazing. Sean: Cool. Todd: But I've now forgotten what the real question was that you just asked. What was it that was, Sean: it doesn't really matter realy, I don't think. I was getting actually, let's, keep going there. Todd: Which, what were you getting to there? Sean: at some point in there you were inspired to document, you, were inspired to use your, I think you were at 22 minutes at, that point with some film editing. Todd: Yeah, Sean: Passion and experience. And you, took that energy to document Nova Scotia bouldering in many ways, put it on the map. And, they end a product was a film called Eastern Tide, which like the climbers these days may or may not know about it. I know you did a screening alongside Emily Currie with her 20, with 20 Grit. Todd: Yeah. Sean: But yeah, tell us about the inspiration behind that and, where that film went because it was pretty cool. Todd: It was, yeah. Oh, man. Sean: And what year was that? That was like 2000, 2002. Todd: Wait, I, Sean: two, 2002. Todd: Is that right? I think Sean: because Keira was just born. I remember that. Todd: Yeah. And I, was thinking 2001, I was thinking 2001. So was when Sean: you were filming? Probably, Todd: yeah. so I, think 200, 99, 2000 somewhere in there is when I, the, when I Sean: first's. That's a quarter century ago, man. Todd: I, that's it's wild, eh? I, you know what? It's funny. I, think, I, what did we watch? Therien had all these, he had a bunch of VHS movies of these. Pretty low quality films, but they were like, Sean: you mean ones that he made or ones like Todd: No, like of like other people made, Sean: like Masters of Stone and shit. Todd: Yeah, exactly. Masters of Stone and stuff like that. Yeah. it was when I was growing up, there was skateboard videos. You'd get a VHS copy of a beach HS copy of of some skateboard video. And it's just a bunch of, it's super grainy. It's it's a crew doing tricks, having fun sort of character stories. Yeah. oh, these are these characters doing these things. And they get into misadventures, oh, we're gonna go grind this rail at the, museum and get kicked out or something. Yeah. those are the stu the really loose stories, but you're, it's, it was skateboard porn and, and I was like, and when I saw 'em Sean: were you a skateboarder? Todd: A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Sean: Okay. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. I Sean: Were you a porn star? Todd: No, definitely not. But there ain't had a bunch of those climbing ones that were like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a bunch of rock climbing. There's, it's not, they're not these crazy deep stories, but it's just a bunch of characters doing this thing that you like, that you find interesting you like to do. So we watch those and I had seen Free Waco by Alex Lowell did that, and and I was like, oh, that's a great, that's a great story about bouldering. And we had just we were just found the LOC, and bouldering was just starting to take off. Like it was like, oh, now we're actually, we're not just going out and doing this. Sean: Yeah. Todd: During the, as an weed in between the seasons, we're going out looking for boulders specifically to, do bouldering. It's not something to pass the time while you wait for a rope season to come in. It's, it was its own pursuit. And we were fin. A lot of areas at that time and I was like, man, it's, it would be great just to capture that energy to try to grab this moment in time and document it. This is before YouTube. This is before - long before YouTube. A cell phone. You barely had a flip phone at that time. they were bricks, you didn't, nobody had cell phones. It was, cameras were big, cameras, but they were, it was that time where you, they started shrinking cameras. They got the technology where you could shrink a professional broadcast camera down a little bit smaller, make it a little bit more affordable. I think my first camera was eight grand or something like that. I spent Wow. On it. Which was a lot of money at the time. Yeah. But It wasn't 200,000, which is what some other cameras could cost, right? So I invested in the gear and I was like, I'm just gonna commit to a full year of filming. I'm just going to take the summer off, not look for work That summer. I think we started in the, started in that winter, that spring, winter, spring. And I just, every day somebody was going out to a new area. I went, out with, and I started collecting, those stories, had a very vague idea of what I was doing, how I would put it all together. It was more, it was gonna be a bunch of, and I think it reads a little bit, like a bunch of like little short. Sean: Yeah, there was chapters to it, wasn't it? Todd: Yeah. Little chapters of each area that we would go to through the season. You would get a sense of where, of this community, where they would go and somebody that had a, an interesting connection to that particular area that liked it for a particular reason. And then amongst that is all like the LOC development, finding the LOC and that, that story of finding that and then finishing with that, which is with the, circles. Yeah. The one that finishes the, movie with Isaan doing that. And it's like the first, when we drove out that road and pulled off to the side and said, let's head up to that boulder up at the top of the hill, Uhhuh. We went past, legends of the fall area. We went past width of a circle and Darion, it caught his eye at that time, but not, I don't know that we spent much time on it. My, I don't recall, but that's. That's the loop. That's the coming back to that very first, the first problem we saw is the last one he does in the thing and brings it full circle. Yeah. So that was my goal. Like Eastern Tide. I wanted to, I just wanted to like, it just felt you could like free Waco, like when they were doing Free Hueco and Obi Carion and Chris Sharma and they're like doing these, they're going into these weird places and finding these new problems like nobody had done them before and they're, the energy that they had, I could see that reflected in our community. And I'm like, I want to grab that. I wanna grab that. It felt so rare and so special Sean: Yeah. Todd: To be able to do, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, Sean: I do, and Todd: it, was so new, not like it, it was such a new idea. There wasn't anyone else doing this thing and the community was, small, but growing a little bit and you Sean: sort of a vanguard of sorts Todd: Yeah. Sean: Pushing into a new, yeah. New frontier. what makes me think of is Obi and Sharma. Todd: Yeah. Sean: The pros or the future pros, I guess there were pros at that time, but anyway, they're, on the, cutting edge of bouldering levels on the planet, let's say. Todd: Yeah. Sean: But what they were doing, I just, I'm fascinated by the experience that the pros are having. it's not that much different than what us bumbly were doing in the LOC. Todd: No. Sean: You know what I mean? No, Just a different, it's the same kind of energy and rewards and challenges. Todd: I think that's what's great about, climbing can be great at any level. Like you, if you climb super hard, like hard, no matter how hard you climb, you're always pushing past that area and you just, you, there's a, there's, I think of it, there's a, a, bracket of difficulty of climbing that one, in bouldering anyway. There's a bracket, a range if you will, that you enjoy climbing at. Sean: not too easy. Not too hard. Hard enough. Todd: Hard enough. That's right. You, know, that you truly enjoy climbing at, and that range is slides. It moves. If you're climbing, if you're climbing v if you're climbing, if you're Sharma, you're climbing V 15, you're not getting on a V five and enjoying it. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Not climbing. Not really. Not in the same way. Sean: Yeah. Todd: But if you're climbing V five, it's great. It's, you are enjoying it. The same way that somebody climbing at V 13 or V 15 is join, enjoying the range that they're climbing at. It's the same feeling. You just keep, the better you get, you just move that further along. Sean: And it's important to do hard, I think, for all of us, for our own development and excitement about living. It's important to do hard things, to challenge yourself. You might be challenging yourself at a V five level. Chris is challenging himself at a V 15 level. Todd: Yeah. Sean: It's relatively hard. Todd: Yeah. Sean: At the same time. Todd: But to your point, it does, I think it does feel the same. It feels from a personal level still, it feels the, we get the same amount out of it, Sean: although we are conjecturing what it feels like to be climbing at a V 15 level. You know what I mean? Todd: Maybe, I don't know what it's like to be Chris Sharma and doing, that stuff, but from a personal level, I think you have the range is, it's, all about that range of, pushing yourself and what you enjoy climbing at. What's, pushing your limits. what's Mick says, Mick's got a saying. We put it up on the wall and, is in the, bulk barn. Mick Levin quote, If you feel good about yourself, you're not trying hard enough. And I think that, in a, cheeky way, that sums up bouldering, doesn't it? that's what bouldering is. If it goes too easy, if you, Sean: what is it? If you feel Todd: good about yourself, if you feel good about yourself, Sean: you're not trying, Todd: you're not trying hard enough. Sean: Okay. Todd: Which is a bit like, oh, I'm supposed to feel bad about myself. Sean: I don't subscribe to that, that approach. No, Todd: it's funny. It's funny, but it is true in a way that, it's oh yeah. Like you can always, if you do something, we're always looking for the next hard challenge in bouldering. I'm always looking for the next hard thing. That's, I'm, you move on really fast. I think that's climbing you. You just, you're always moving on to the next thing. Looking for that next fix. Yeah, for sure. Of the drug. If your motivation is to climb harder, then you're always getting in chasing a grade or being like comparing yourself to somebody what somebody else is doing, then yeah, you're not gonna get as much enjoyment out of climbing lower grades. If your both your motivations are the same and you're comparing yourself to them, then definitely they're having more fun. But if you're not comparing yourself to them, if you're just in it for you, Sean: yeah, Todd: then you're having as much fun as anyone else. And I've always climbed with people that were better than me. Sean: It's the best way to do it really Todd: well, and everyone's always better than me. And so I, I think maybe the years of that have taught me not to compare myself to what other people are doing and just enjoy being out there. I'm happy, I'm happy now if, I can go out and climb, a V four to V six. I'm pretty stoked. Sean: And that's a happy place for you to, take on those projects? Todd: Man, there's so much climbing in that range. Sean: There is, Todd: yeah. There's so much climbing in that range, and it's not something that people would be like, oh, that's you. Oh, that's like Sean: Nice send! Todd: Thing. Nobody's, no, my, I don't have people calling me up and asking me to sponsor me for climbing these problems. Yeah. There's no more money. I'm like, what am I'm doing it for myself. Who cares? There's no fame, there's no fortune. There's, I'm doing it because it was great to do it. It's Sean: it seems like you're advocating for finding joy in what most would consider moderate kind of range. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Problems. Todd: it's great. Rock climbing's, super fun, especially, and honestly in that range, I'm, and what do I know about climbing at, V 10? I've never done it. The hardest thing I've done is like V eight talking a couple, but. The way you get to move your body in that range, it feels oh yeah, you get to take advantage of drop knees, not doing your drop knees, get outta here, drop knees, heel hooks. You get to compress, you get to move in a, very interesting way, Sean: Yeah. Cool. Todd: you get to do all the classic prescribed body position movements and all the tricks that make rock climbing. You get, to climb on really interesting holds in that range. it's not all just real, Sean: real holds, Todd: not just like holes. It's not all jug halls, like the positions are interesting. yeah, and I, just Sean: do you think people are missing that? Because what, I find. Amazing is how strong climbers are coming out of the gyms, these gyms these days. Like you mentioned it earlier, like there's so many facilities now. Yeah. Information, videos, trainers, all of it, and, it's remarkable how quickly people become very competent climbers and boulders, powerful and whatever. Are you, are you saying that people might be missing the fund in that kind of more, let's call it a moderate range of B four to B seven or whatever you wanna pick? Is it, were, you hinting at that at all? Or Todd: maybe, I, don't, I can't say for sure Sean: and I'm not making fun of you for that. that's the kind of range I'm at too, right? Todd: I think, you know what, I'll go out on a limb and I'll say, I'll say for here in Nova Scotia, I, think that the greatest, like some of the best, the, volume of it, the volume of good climbing and interesting climbing is likely in that range. Like I think there's, yeah, there's actually, so to there, I know that there's some stuff that's in that eight V seven V eight V nine that's a little beyond me. There's tons of stuff that there that I have to put a lot more work into doing. That is still very good. Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Todd: There's some of it that's still very good, but if you're climbing V four to V six in this province, man, there's so much good rock climbing for you. And I think the volume of it is more than I think our rock style generally. This is just a generalization, I think as, it gets whole, as it gets harder. Generally, this is not for everything. You get less holds, they get shittier, they get more nuanced about like how you grab a particular rounded edge, a sloper or lack of hold. Sean: Dave, my, my chat with Dave Quinn, he talks a lot about that as he's escalated through the grades. he's chasing B 13, B 14 stuff. Yeah. And he talks exactly about that. That the, holds are diminishing in size and increasing in difficulty and nuance, where if you wanna grab some nice holds, if you're too strong, you're, you are, your own worst enemy here because it's, you know what I mean? Like Todd: Yeah. Yeah. In a way. and I would say I, can't speak for Dave, but, but you don't see people, the cl at that level going to a place where, and, Spending a lot of days climbing V four V five, you, they're not learning anything new from it. They're not having a new experience. They're not, they're not putting themselves in. they're so strong that it, just feels too easy. It's like climbing a ladder. It's not a challenge. Sean: This is an argument for not training to keep yourself mediocre. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So that everything is challenging for you at the lowest levels. The other guest question was Rich, and again, it's like your longevity in the sport. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And, he's curious about how you keep yourself relatively healthy and not get injured. you actually just mentioned you have had a number of injuries in the past, but yeah. What's your, thoughts on staying injury free and how does training fit in the mix of your climbing life lifestyle? Todd: I would, I'll say from the standpoint of, The modern way of thinking of training, where you're, doing things other than rock climbing to, to, be better at rock climbing. I don't do that. I only rock climb. Sean: Yeah. Todd: I'm, I don't like that, like going, I find, hang boarding, stifling. I find, I don't, I hadn't really got into, I don't really like lifting weights. It's not, I don't really enjoy going into a gym like that, like a weight gym or something like that. It's not something I enjoy. I like being outside, but I also like the climbing gyms. I like the movement. Yeah. I wanna be moving. there's so many things I think I could do to improve my rock climbing. if I were that type of person, I know who I am. I know what I like. I don't compare myself to anyone else any longer. I think when I was younger, when I was new to climbing, you can't help it. You see the media tells you that this is what you should be doing, that this is what rock climbing is, this is how you should be striving for that. And I think I did that for a long time. I had injuries. I tried training, I guess in the gym as whatever it was back in the day, which was poor, Yeah. You're doing the hang boards, you're, you're doing this, trying to do system boards and stuff like that. And you, I did all that stuff and I still ended up, you end, up injured. now I am, I I'm okay with who I am and how hard I'm climbing 'cause it's still a lot of fun. If I wasn't having fun, then I would pro then, maybe I'd be like. It's easy to say. 'cause I'm still like, I'm climbing pretty average, but I'm pretty happy with the average. There's lots of rock climbs for me to do. Tons. There's so much for me to do. If I ran out of things to do, maybe I would start to feel differently about it. Sean: So you're subscribing to a life of moderation Todd: Better. A life of moderation. Yeah. Yeah. Secret I secret. Sean: This is Todd Secret. No, up and downs. Keep it, level. Todd Todd: up. Choose easy. I wanna, but I say choose easy, but then I go out and I, I'll put myself on a project and I want to be challenged. But you know what I'm saying? Like I, Sean: yeah, but I'm not, it's, it is making me like, you don't really choose easy, like these guidebook projects? like you invited me to join you on your, the latest, eastern shore thing. And I joined you for a day at Gibraltar and it was like minus 10 degrees - with a wind chill felt like minus 20. Todd: That's pretty miserable. Sean: It was busy. It was a gorgeous day. Like super sunny, got the snow in the woods. Todd: It was beautiful. There was that crisp, the air was crystally almost that day. Yes. Remember the light beams would come through and that. Sean: It was gorgeous. It was a gorgeous day. Todd: Yeah. I love that day. That was beautiful. Sean: But it's hard, Todd: it Sean: hard living, yeah. It was uncomfortable. you're grinding away out there really for the benefit of a lot of folks listening to this and just the climbing community as a whole, and I think a lot of people are impressed with your perseverance and your energy to get out there and Todd: Yeah. Sean: Do you're not taking the easy path, my friend. Todd: No, that's true. That's true. I, yeah. Sean: You just choose a different kind hard, a Todd: different kind of hard, yeah. Yeah. I like to create too. I think that's, Sean: yeah. Okay. Todd: I think that, that's always been important for me. I think that's why I did Eastern Tide and I was able to take that film, it went to the Banff Mountain Film Festival. Yeah. I toured like a short version of that when in the Banff Mountain Film Festival. I went up to Banff, we presented it. a huge percentage of the climbs that you see in Eastern Tide are either first descents or repeats by the first Ascensions. Sean: Oh, neat. Huh. Todd: Yeah. So you Yeah, I was, I really tried to do a Sean: Moment in Time. Todd: Yeah. I really tried to, do that, get that and Sean: Yeah. That's cool. Todd: yeah. Sean: And that did, you took it also to the what was cool is that, it became part of the Banff Film Festival tour. It was picked for it, for the Yeah, it toured the Todd: world. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Which is a crazy, and it opened part, like that kind of opened up. I would say Dover Island in particular. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause of the stunning setting. Todd: Yeah. Sean: You know that's drawn international interest. Todd: Yeah. Sean: I think directly from that film. Todd: And so after it went on the Band Mountain Film Festival World Tour, it went into their, they did like they would package it, their favorite films into a one hour film or a one or two hour thing. And then we played at all these resorts. Sean: Oh, no way. Todd: It'd be like a ski resort in Vermont. Really? It would play on their closed circuit television and I think, after the first year of its tour and on that, in that circ that, in that program, it was over a million people had seen it. Sean: Dude, Todd: that's incredible. It was, Sean: is that the short or the full version? The Todd: short one, Sean: yeah. Yeah, Todd: yeah. Sean: And just to interject my own contributions to that film. Yes. you, commissioned me for, I think you, paid me, you bought me a hard drive from my computer to be able to do this. I don't think I got any swag, but, anyways, yeah. So I got a chance to write the soundtrack for the, short. Yeah. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And that's, I didn't realize it had gone that far around the world. That's, yeah. That's pretty cool. Todd: Yeah. Sean: so we've talked, one of my questions for you was, are you a rope climber or are you boulderer? And I think maybe we've answered that question 'cause we've talked for almost two hours about bouldering. Todd: It's, 'cause it's what I'm doing right now. Sean: Yeah, Todd: It, suits me right now. but I started o climbing ropes, I think. Then there was a time where I was shooting eastern high, which is, that's all I did was bouldering. And then when I finished that, I went back to rope climbing. It's funny. It's funny. Yeah. I think people see me as a boulderer, but when Alec and I started the Rope Guide, he did up a chart, a big spreadsheet, and it turns out that I'm the most prolific route developer in the province. I think it's still, I don't think anyone has pa if Therien or you had, I think you and Therien were real close seconds, like as far as route development goes, but I don't know that there's anyone else that's put up even since then. Sean: You told me that in the and we were bouldering the, yeah, in, the winter there. it it surprised me right off the get go. I was like, what? Really? Todd: It surprised me too. Yeah. Sean: But then you're like, okay, you, were really going at it pretty hard there for a few years. Like you and Sean were at the spot. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And then you moved to the castle. You did stuff at Main Base and Cape Clear, like you have been all over, Todd: yeah. Sean: Yeah. It's cool to, Todd: I think I've got a route at every crag. Therien introduced me to route development. Yeah. Gave me the bug and that became another, I guess that was my creative outlet after doing Eastern Tide route development, became my creative outlet. And I did that for Sean: 10, Todd: a long time. 10 or 12 years Long time. And then, yeah. And then, finding the joy in bouldering again. And that's what I'm doing now. And I'll, Who's to say, oh, I'll probably return to rope climb. I bought a harness, a new harness the other day. 'cause I realized, I pulled mine out and I was like, oh God, I shouldn't even be cleaning a route. Or, Sean: oh, there you go. Todd: A boulder problem on that rope, that harness anymore. So I need new harness and I like rope climbing. Samantha's interview actually got me very excited again to Sean: Oh, to climb rope. know, it's really funny is, I think Samantha's interview was great. I think she inspired a lot of people. Myself included. Sean Therien mentioned that he, after Samantha's interview, Todd: yeah, Sean: he was so inspired. Sean for people listening. Sean's been out of climbing for a few years now. He went down to his, garage and stared at his rack for 20 minutes, - which is the equivalent of you getting a new harness. yeah. yeah. Todd: I could still picture, that too. Like I could just visually see him looking Sean: just like forlornly looking Todd: at this thing. Yeah. And Sean: do I dare do this again? Todd: Todd Foster 2.0 is a more skilled rock climber than Todd Foster 1.0 Sean: for sure. For sure. Todd: And, now I'm leaning into those skills. Sean: Todd Foster, 1.0 was an idiot! :) Todd: that guy, man. That guy. I wish I could talk to him. Sean: What would you tell, what would you tell that guy? Todd: What would I tell? Sean: What would you tell that guy? Todd: I'd probably tell him to train. Sean: Ahhhhhhhhhh. But then he'd be like, this sucks and he wouldn't be climbing now. He'd be like, done. Todd: I wouldn't, Sean: oh, really? Todd: I wouldn't change, I wouldn't change anything. I would, maybe Sean: you must have learned something. Todd: Yeah, I, maybe I would. I have, I'm more controlled now. I think about the times when I, injured myself. Or I did, the way I, I would've climbed before. I'm more calm. I'm more in control. I'm less worried about. Doing a thing because somebody else did it. If I don't feel like I'm Sean: if your finger's about to pop, you're not gonna give it one more burn. Todd: Exactly. Yeah. I don't care. I don't care. And I'm not worried about, and why I did it before was I'm, was I worried about, not even about maybe I was worried about what other people would think or comparing myself to, somebody else. But even comparing yourself to your yourself, to yourself on another day. It's oh, I'm weak. Weaker than I used, oh, I'm weaker than this person. Or, oh, I'm weaker than Sean: me yesterday Todd: than I was, I gotta try harder. Instead of being in tune with who, being like, no, that was a good session, like another session and I'll do it because my body will be ready for it. Sean: That's cool. Todd: Yeah. Sean: So you're not hard on yourself. You're not as hard on yourself as, Todd: I'm not as hard on myself. Sean: Perhaps you were before, Todd: yeah, Sean: yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of wisdom, but value in, I think being comfortable with failure. Yeah. And you could call it one prism on it would be failure, but you're, yeah. Todd: YEah, failure's not a bad word. Sean: That's how Todd: you Sean: learn, observing. Todd: Yeah. Sean: what went wrong or what did what went right given the circumstances you were dealing with. Todd: yeah. Sean: Yeah. That's a, yeah, that's cool. There is no failure in a way. Todd: Yeah. And I think, something I thought about a lot was like, even when I was saying I'm, doing the guidebooks, when I first started climbing, I felt like I was always chasing everyone else was, I was chasing their goals. Everyone else's goals were what I was, following everyone else and their goals. And now, I focus more on my own goals. What do I want to do for me? Fortunately, those goals often include giving my goals are to give back to the community. Making the guidebook, documenting that stuff Is also I get a creative process outta that. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but I also, I get give back. So that becomes my goal. It becomes my tick list. I'm gonna do these areas that I Yeah. That I, that, it's motivating that everyone had done those problems in before me, and then we walked away from, and I hadn't been back to do them now. Doing the guidebooks become my motivation for doing them now. Now it's my goal to do them. Nice. It's my turn to do them. Nice. I'm really conscious. I thought about this the other day because I'm climbing with my, friend Carlene. Sean: What's Carlene's last name? [Gallant] You, the launch, you, guys climbed quite a bit together, right? Todd: Yeah, we met in the parking lot At Sandy Cove. Sean: Yeah. Todd: during COVID. Sean: Cool. Todd: Yeah. and she's become a, great friend and, a great climbing partner and, I'm very conscious with her of she will follow wherever I want to go. She's whatever you wanna do. That's great. And I'm always contributing Sean: You're, gonna be dead soon! Let's do what you wanna do! Todd: I think she's happy to follow, but I'm always conscious of don't fall into the trap that I fell into. Sean: Oh, Todd: following of following somebody else's. Yeah. are you sure? We like, I'm ready to leave, but I, let's stay for you. Sean: Nice. Yeah. Todd: I wanna stay here for you. You should do this. I will stay as long as we need to for you to do it. Don't worry. if I did this problem really fast, don't worry about it. I'm not, I don't care to move on. Let's do it for you. Sean: That's Todd: great. If this is something you want to do, let's do it. don't ever let me over lead you around. Sean: Nice. Todd: Make sure you feel comfortable saying what you wants Sean: That's a good partner. Todd: Yeah. Sean: can we talk a little bit about routes? I'm, we've talked a lot a while here. Do you got like half hour more? Maybe Todd: I could. Sean: It's fun. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Bullshitting about this stuff, isn't it? Todd: It is. It's because I haven't really, there's a lot of things I hadn't really thought about. Thinking like coming out, it may, I was thinking a lot about what, climbing is meant to, all of it. what my whole career, what's meant to me? Sean: Yeah. Cool. Nice. Todd: it's really, I think about it a lot. Why I do, why I do some, like, why I'm doing this to myself. Making this guy this next guy book feels so hard. Sean: It looks hard, man. Looks hard. Todd: It's so hard. Hard. The problems are so dirty. Yeah. It is. Like you are going out and. They might as well be first descents. Like we have to scrub almost, every problem needs to be res scrubbed, which is fun in a way. 'cause I get to see it through the eyes. Fresh eyes. I'm sure there's a hold underneath all that moss. Yeah. 'cause somebody's climbed this thing before, but you wanna talk about, rope climbing? Sean: Yeah. let's jump into that. We don't have to spend, hours on it, but, you mentioned, you, have been one of, if not the most prolific route developer - predominantly I would guess sport routes.... mostly bolted. Todd: Yeah. Sean: I would think. I, feel like you guys, you and Sean really hit the spot hard and I was reading your guidebook earlier today or yesterday. And in your introduction, I think you talk about maybe the motivation or you saw the opportunity to develop bolted climbs that were more accessible to folks that are new to getting outside. Because at that time we had not a lot of sport routes. We had some sport routes, but most of them were hard. Yeah. Like you had to know what you're doing to launch up Slave to Fashion at First Face, for example. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about Yeah. The motivation at that time to, to take that on. And the last point I wanna make is written in your guidebook, you say that during that first season of development, you put more metal in that place than existed, cumulatively elsewhere in the province up to that date. Todd: Yes, I think so. Sean: Which is crazy. Todd: Yeah. two, two things to why, why did we develop, why so many sport routes? one is that if you went out all the established crags. Had all been developed, the trad because you guys had all done all the trad routes beforehand. There were no other trad routes to be had. So we looked at the blank spaces between, that's where there were potential routes, where you couldn't put a piece of gear in a crack. So the cracks had all been climbed. if you wanted to put up new routes, it would make sense that you would, there was more sport route potential than there was because it wasn't something that people were doing. And, maybe your perspective would be different on this, but, it felt, it did feel like that, that it was, that we were pushing, against the norms of climbing at the time. It felt like we were doing something that people didn't want us to do that was frowned upon, putting a bolt in the rock or you're like, even, I did it and I've gone back and corrected it where I put up mixed routes where you're like, oh, you can put a piece in that lower section, but the top section's all bolts. So it'd be like all bolts at the top, but one piece at the bottom and it'd be run out and there would be a ground fall. We felt pressure not to put a bolt in down there from the community, from the tradition of the, of the, that was here. I don't think I'm wrong in, in my read on that. I think that it did feel like we were getting some pushback. there was a stout traditional style that prevailed here to a certain degree. Sean: yeah, I, my memory's fuzzy, but there were sport.... Todd: there Sean: were sport routes, Todd: were sport Sean: going up. there's not Todd: Willett was kinda it, and you've, I think you did put up some ,Jonathan put up Sean: I bolted All the Rage. Yeah, exactly. I think, Chameleon- I put up that by then. Transformer was up. Todd: Yeah. But there was more opportunity in putting up sport routes. The other thing I realized too is that I'd spent a long time, it felt like I'd climbed for a very long time and was not very good. I was not a very good rock climber as far as difficult, like I was not a very strong climber that, climbing trad here, the learning curve, it took a very long time to get s. if you spent half the day setting up a top rope anchor Yeah. You don't have that much time to climb. like likewise, if you're hanging on a crack and you're like trying to fiddle in gear and learn that part of it, you're not physically getting strong very quickly. So when we went, I went on and the realization I had of that, the, moment I had an a aha moment, Therien and I went on my first, we went on our, it was my first sport climbing trip. we went to the New River Gorge. And if you've never been to the New River Gorge, it's not The Red, it's not, it is not. They, it is, it has sport climbing. But it's not what people would call sport. It's, it is a, they're Sean: I've climb to both those places. They seem similar to me Todd: they're more bold the routes are way more bold there. Sean: Oh, okay okay. Todd: It's generally, way more bold routes, even though they're bolted. we went there and I remember we were, I can't, we were, can't remember the exact what the, where the Crag we were at. I had, I had been climbing for a while at that point. I was getting my ass kicked on, a five 10 A and then we were there and we're, and there was, this, these couple, ladies came through and they throw down the rope. They're, they're, ripping up these routes, taking whippers. And I was just like, oh my God. They're just like big whippers, I guess if they big whippers and they're pushing the, and I was just, whoa, And we chatted with them a little bit afterwards. Hadn't barely been climbing a year. And I was like, there was no gym there in that community. I don't think there was a, there was an indoor gym. So they're doing this outside rock climbing. So I'm comparing myself to somebody else that's been climbing a lot less time than me. Sean: How did they get that comfortable, that quickly? Todd: That comfortable, that quickly. Yeah. And that strong. but coming back from that, I was like, oh, the difference is they have a lot of quantity of 5 10, 5 11 sport route. They can take whips without worrying about the gear blowing out or how a crystal blowing apart and their gear pulling out and, and the gear. And it wasn't like, you're not like hand jamming in something where, and you have like nerve damage at the end of the routes. And I was like, Sean: okay. I get, the picture. You're not comfortable trad climbing Todd: I felt like I, I was being held back from. My read on it was like, oh, if you get more, if you can put the technical side of that aside, you get stronger faster. And I think, and I was like, oh, sport climb is great. Like I can I get to climb harder and do more interesting things faster. and I think we came back from that and then started, looking around at routes to putting up sport routes and that became the driver. And then it was like, yeah. And being able to add, I was looking for that volume, I think initially of I'm looking for five tens. I'm looking for that real accessible grade people will, they, don't have to make the jump from the one 5 6 with bolts to the five 11 C. Sean: Yeah. Right. You're filling in the, Todd: filling in the gaps. build the building blocks for people to get better at climbing. And then, I think it's made the community, I think it's made stronger climbers made more accessible that way. Sean: Yeah, no, I agree. It's become, it's a very popular spot. Todd: We just saw under all of that detritus that there were routes that you could do cool things. That there was like, don't look in the corners for the cracks. Look out on the faces, look out on the aretes. There's holds and movement and, yeah. Sean: Yeah. yeah, I don't know. I feel like there were, there was a lot of trad climbing. that's how places start everywhere. Todd: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Sean: there was a smaller, much smaller number of sport climbs, but they existed and people were developing those route as well as trad routes. But also in between was the whole mixed climbing concept. And I think, I'm totally on board with, if there's one or two bits where you could put a piece in and the whole route, there's 10 bolts beyond that and it just makes sense to make it a sport climb. But if it's the inverse, if it's like, there's a blank section and I gotta put a bolt in here. personally I'm not in favor of okay, that means you can bolt everything on that route. Todd: I think there's a lot of nuance to, to route development and how one looks at it. I've made choices both ways. I see it both ways. I'll flip flop back and forth. One could take, I'll take, a controversial point. I'll just say it. I don't know it. It's, I'll retract it later. I'm just talking shit. I would say this... a trad climber is never happy clipping a bolt, a trad climber if on a trad route, if they got clip a bolt, they, that's not the part of the rock climb that they're romantic about. [Gosh. ]So, a trad climber gets no satisfaction on a route with one bolt and a sport climber certainly doesn't get any satisfaction on a route with one piece. Sean: Yeah. I don't, yeah. Todd: But I don't know, I just talk as shit like, not, that's not necessarily true, but, you get the, kind of point of yeah, but I'm not advocating for yeah, I wouldn't, Sean: do you think there's still a place for trad routes? It sounds, like you're, yes. Yes. it sounds like you're not co... you never really developed a taste for it or, the skills to do those routes and enjoy them sounds like. is that fair? Todd: I, don't find. I don't find our, or I, and this could be lack of, I don't wanna say it's lack of experience 'cause there were only trad routes, we top roped all that shit forever. There was a financial barrier to getting into tread climbing early on. So we top roped a lot. Maybe that had some sort of effect on how I view that climbing. but I I'm like, I don't know. I'm not saying - I wouldn't say that the sport climbing is better here than the trad climbing. if I were to say what's better, the sport climbing or trad climbing, I don't know that I would say it's better. I just, I don't find often that the trad climbing's that great. Inconsistent cracks, flaring full of crystals, I find It's not, I've been to pla... I've been to places and trad climbed, like Vegas Red Rocks. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Incredible. Sean: Yeah. We've done a route or two there together. Todd: Yeah. You can't, you have to like, you have to work to not keep your gear from getting into the cracks. Like you have to keep, it just eats gear and it's, and good interesting constrictions and stuff like that I find here, if you like the, if, you like the challenge of, the puzzle of finding a placement and being, that's an acceptable amount of risk that I'm, that I can take that I believe that it will stay. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Then the trad climbing here is probably quite good, if you'd like the, if you know what I'm saying, it's not, it's, they're not, it is, am I wrong? I think a lot of it is a, but maybe that comes from. Like I say like that, that those early days, that's all I did was trad climbing and I felt held back by. Sean: But you probably weren't climb, you were like the eaz.... mean like for.... I'm comfortable on trad but I love sport climbing, which to me is all just climbing, Todd: Yeah, Sean: And to me, there's some amazing trad route out here. They're, hard, climbing ghost dance or stuff at Crow's Nest or Shiprock, there's incredible quality out there. Todd: would not advocate for putting any bolts on, an, anything on there. Yeah. It's nice to have top We added anchors Sean: Yes. Todd: To the top of those, which is, Sean: that makes sense. Yeah. Todd: Which is really nice. It, makes it accessible, but doesn't change the climbing, the nature of the climbing and that stuff is i ncredible. Like the, I have not climbed many of them. And the one one that sticks [well, you and I did one there together] Yeah, exactly. Is the one that you took for that ride on. That, God, the worst thing was, the worst part of that was, is following, is trying to get a piece out that you so jam, into a crack. And then I, felt like puking because it was so pumped trying to get it out. 'cause it's so steep. And Sean: I think we need to, we need to get someone who's into trad on here to sell it a bit. 'cause I know there's a lot of people coming up now that are interested in that style of climbing and I think there's so many different ways to climb here and now, especially- there's a plethora of routes of all different styles that should be available. I, I, wouldn't want things to be whitewashed in a certain, way, Todd: Yeah. I don't. I don't, want to trash talk, trad climbing here. I, [too late.] But I also don't wax poetic about it either. I don't, they're not the routes that it just wasn't, it wasn't, I, it wasn't for me. I don't know. [There's nothing wrong with that. ] Yeah. I don't know. I didn't, get wrapped up in it and, but I own a rack. I have a very extensive rack now. Probably all of it needs to be re slung because it's also old, but, and oh, like doing the guidebook we did, we went up to Cape Breton and we climbed a ton of routes, trad routes at Black? Black Brook. Sean: Black Brook. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Todd: All of that's trad. Sean: Yeah. Todd: And Alec and me climbed and led all those it's good. And it was, they're great. They were fun. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Really a lot of fun. Actually. I found 'em quite good. my recollection is that there was nothing. We didn't do anything really hard. Yeah. But we did lots and we put up new routes there too. Sean: Yeah. Cool. Todd: New, new trad routes. Sean: Look at you. You're a trad climber! Todd: I'll climb it. It's just, yeah, Popcorn's a great route. Really fun. That's a fun adventure that I don't Sean: Yeah. Todd: I don't think you would get on a sport route, per se, in the same way. Sean: That's a, that's a great route, yeah. like 5, 6, 5 7. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Yeah. Really fun. Sean: yeah. Todd: But I, maybe it's, maybe I'm just more passionate about sport climbing because I like to create, and that's where the, that's the palette that was available to paint on were the sport routes. And so I got really into that. That's what I like, And, maybe that's it. Sean: Would you typically, top rope routes before you bolt them or send them? Or how did that work? Do you approach? Todd: Generally not, A bit of a, I'll say it's funny, it's, it's, I feel like it's a bit of a, it's, a bit of a cheat in a way. It might be harder for somebody who does to onsite a route that I've bolted than it was for me to bolt to do it on the first ascent. Sean: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Todd: Because I spend a lot of time considering the holds. I will have essentially worked a lot of the movements on top rope, even if I don't even have my climb. Like I generally, I wouldn't put my climbing shoes on. I'm doing 'em with boots on, so I'm like, pulling on holds and moving around. I've already considered the positions in a way, so I already have pre analyzed the beta on it before I get on. Yeah, of course. And I would usually have, at the very least, a bolt to bolt attempt. like go up. Yeah. The ground, like if I'm feel ground up If, I feel tired, I'll go bolt to bolt. Like I'm, not, if it's not gonna work, if I know that I'm like, oh, I'm, no, I'm, gonna, this is, this move's gonna be a little bit too hard to do on onsite. I'll sit on a bolt. Take a second, even if I don't need to. Sometimes I'll just be like, no, I can feel it. I'm gonna need to sit. I'll just sit it, it'll be more efficient to sit at every bolt Than to go up, get super pumped, get a flash pump, and then have my day all screwed up because I pushed too hard before I was warm enough. So warm up by going, bolt to bolt, Sean: climbing a route for the first time, whether it's one you Yeah. You're putting up in the process of putting it up or Todd: Yeah. Sean: Or just climbing for the first time yourself. I love going bolt to bolt, Yeah. It's yeah. It's like doing like mini boulder problems between bolts. It's what. The way I see that Todd: you get up, you, you clip you, you take, you shake out, you look around, you have a better look at something. [Yeah. ]As much as on sighting is fun too. Like on sighting something, not knowing, just like casting out. Sean: Yeah. Todd: Going, I'm just, deal with what you can find what you grab initially. And you go, Sean: you mentioned it there, and it's not a criticism at all. It's, I've always felt that, the first true ascent of a route is, the, the second ascent, oftentimes someone who's on sighting something, those that, like you, you are, you're a creative artist in a way, finding the line, equipping the line, thinking through the safety points or to risk tolerance levels or whatever. [Yeah.] And it's that next individual. Has that pure experience Yeah. Would think it, to interpret it, don't Todd: Yeah, Sean: absolutely. They don't have the previous knowledge of the holds. Or even, in a trad sense, sometimes there's like hidden gear placements. That only the first ascentionist - the person that cleans it, they'll know about those little spots. Todd: Yeah. If absolutely. Sean: on the sharp end for the first time, good luck. Todd: Yeah. Sean: it's part, it's a, higher game. it's a more Todd: Yeah. Sean: Intense experience. But how about you've, you've put up so many routes as, we talked about. Todd: Yeah. Sean: What are some of the favorites that the, routes that you're most proud of having put up? Todd: that's interesting. That's a good question. Sean: You probably haven't been on your lines or thought about this for quite a while. Todd: God, there's so many lines. Sean: Yeah. Todd: And so many of them that, that, are in that moderate range that I, I would do really, I do rather quickly. Sean: there's a couple routes of yours that come to my mind as being really good ones. Todd: Oh. Sean: one being Taming of the Shrew. Todd: Ah, taming of the shrew is so good. Sean: at the castle. Todd: Yeah. Sean: Which is un.... it, it feels like it's not really from this place. The quality of the holds, the rock, the just the position and stuff. Yeah. Beautiful line. So that's like about a 10 C I think. Todd: Yeah, I think, yeah. Sean: And the other one I quite like. so that first one you did with Jack, I believe? Todd: Yeah. Sean: From the guidebook I looked at. And the other one I quite like is your contribution to First Face. Yes. Professor Digs and the Berry Bandit or something. Todd: Professor Digs and the Berry Bandit. Sean: You and Mick, put that up. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And that's another very accessible, it was like a 10, probably about the same, probably about 10 c. Todd: That one's such a great, Sean: it's cool. Todd: It's a great little climb. Sean: Yeah. What a nice, I love that little, wall at the top there. Todd: Yeah. Yeah. What a nice, good holds through it weaves a little bit. Sean: Yeah. Todd: weaves, goes up, goes right then weaves left, traverses left a little bit, and then up and through Sean: big, scoopy jug at the Todd: Yeah. Sean: From the top. Todd: Yeah. That's such a, that's a good line. It's good. Sean: this has been a lot of fun, man. Just gonna wrap it up. you've been around for a lot of Nova Scotia climbing history. Todd: Yeah. Sean: And you've seen the community grow in many different ways. What excites you about what's happening these days with the community? Todd: I think, I guess we'll always compare to like, we're talking outside rock climbing. it's exciting that we have as many gyms as we have. Sean: Definitely. Todd: we're really lucky like that, that for such a small community that, that we have that much, indoor climbing at, our fingertips. And we have so much rock climbing outside as well. I think what excites me is I, every time I think, oh, it's tapped out, there's nothing new to be found. We look in another obvious spot and find something else. And I think I'm, exci, I'm excited that there's, what appears to be so many strong climbers coming outta the gym and that they are, that there are so many of them that are also passionate about outside rock climbing. Sean: Yeah. Todd: And I've had, I've had. A lot of people talk to me about, talk to me in the way that, that they're passionate about outside climbing like I'm passionate about it - I feel good about that. There's like a whole, there's. There's a whole other generation of people that are coming outta the gym that are, just as excited about it and want to give back in the same way that I like to give back. Sean: Nice. It's an exciting time for sure. Todd: We're so lucky. We're so lucky in this province. Sean: It's pretty darn cool and I think all of us are lucky to have you out there churning away and making the stuff available for all of it. It's had a real impact for sure, Todd. So thanks for those efforts. Todd: I hope it's positive. Sean: Definitely. Thanks a lot Todd. And thanks to everyone here for listening. I hope you enjoyed that trip down memory lane for the two of us. And as always, big thanks to climb Nova Scotia for supporting the podcast along with Unfiltered Brewing, Seven Bays Bouldering, and East Peak Climbing. Catch you all later. Todd: And now I'm 50. Oh God, I've forgotten my age. 50. 53, Sean: man this is senility setting in big time. Todd: Yeah, this is it. 50 plus. We'll say, Sean: Holly, how old am I? Can you pick up some more diapers on your way home? You and your drop knees.....get outta here!